Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[Boudicca90]

You are making an argument from the labels that we've put on these spaces/leagues without delving into why we did so in the first place. We didn't create the WNBA for people who identify (however strongly) with femininity, but for those who never went through the virilizing process of male puberty.

We created the WNBA because the league wasn't interested in integrating the NBA by having women play within the NBA. It's a way for the NBA to pay female players less for the same work.

I don't claim to know where you belong in society. I would assume that the process of designating spaces/leagues/etc. is socially constructed (rather than revealed from on high) and remains under construction to this day.

I know where I belong, with my fellow women.

 

[p0lka]

]I am a woman, therefore I belong] in women's restrooms, locker rooms, spas, shelters, and prisons. You want to keep me out of where I belong in society. Trans-exclusionary.

Your argument reminds me of when homophobes would decry same-sex marriage. "They aren't being discriminated against, a gay guy can marry a woman if he wants!"

therefore I belong,
Transpeople seem to want to fit in, whereas the other letters aren't trying to fit in, at all.

 

[d4m10n]

We created the WNBA because the league wasn't interested in integrating the NBA by having women play within the NBA.

Was anybody actually interested in doing that?

It's a way for the NBA to pay female players less for the same work.

If they were literally performing at the same level, there would be no need for separate leagues.

I know where I belong, with my fellow women.

If you're going to hinge your argument on that one word, you should at least say what it means.

 

[Meadmaker]

We created the WNBA because the league wasn't interested in integrating the NBA by having women play within the NBA.

 

[lionking]

Was anybody actually interested in doing that?
If they were literally performing at the same level, there would be no need for separate leagues.

If you're going to hinge your argument on that one word, you should at least say what it means.

Nobody with a brain was.

 

[Meadmaker]

None of you are supportive of us. We have very few actual allies on this board.

You, Emily's Cat, The Athiest, the prestige, et al. All of you hold transphobic beliefs and want to exclude us from society on the basis of our gender and sex, or what you mistakenly believe it to be.

Even sometimes allies like LondonJohn still want to discriminate against us, just in a more limited fashion. So even they have a limit to how much they support us.

While your use of "woman" is more expansive than the traditional definition, your definition of "ally" seems very restrictive indeed.

 

[Boudicca90]

therefore I belong,
Transpeople seem to want to fit in, whereas the other letters aren't trying to fit in, at all.

Really? Because as a gay man previously, I tried to fit in then too. Hell, I 'fit in' too much to the point people tended to think I was straight.

Unless your concept of queer people is that we are all out there and in your face. That's not my reality.

 

[The Atheist]

.... but choosing to express that anger/disgust/sadness/whatever towards Hubbard by referring to her as "it" is something else altogether. It's anti-transgender animus.

Nope.

It's anti-Hubbard animus.

I believe - and men's weightlifting is a sport I've been close to for 50 years - that Hubbard exploited the rules and is not a genuine trans woman.

Supported by its jillionaire daddy, Hubbard had never done a day's work in its life, spending all its time training to break into the top echelon of men's weightlifting. And fail.

In a remarkable coincidence, Hubbard decided it was a woman shortly after men were allowed to compete against women. I'm just thankful the rule change didn't happen at an earlier age, or it would hold unbeatable records in all weightlifting disciplines. Well, unbeatable until the next bloke pulled on panties.

I look at The Atheist's body of work, and I see someone who is not merely supportive of transgender people, but practically an extremist in that support.

However, unlike the typical woke child, he retains a grasp of reality. As supportive as he is, he still recognizes the truth that he stated when he wrote the title of this thread.

You can clearly read and understand what you read!

When you find a female, check whether she is human and an adult. If she is, your work is done. But this works only for Oldspeak. For a Newspeak definition, you must seek elsewhere.

You're saying Crocodile Dundee nailed it all those years ago.

 

[p0lka]

Really? Because as a gay man previously, I tried to fit in then too. Hell, I 'fit in' too much to the point people tended to think I was straight.

Unless your concept of queer people is that we are all out there and in your face. That's not my reality.

That's my point, why the urge to fit in?
That isn't what the other letters do.

Also, you said "as a gay man previously", Yeah I get your urge to fit in, but are you saying that you can just choose?

 

[Ziggurat]

We created the WNBA because the league wasn't interested in integrating the NBA by having women play within the NBA. It's a way for the NBA to pay female players less for the same work.

Let me second the statement by d4m10n that it isn't the same work.

Not that I'm not saying they don't work as hard. Maybe they do, maybe they even work harder. Don't know, don't care, doesn't matter. I could work harder than anyone in the world at playing basketball, and yet, nobody would pay be anything to play. Why? Because I'm not as good.

And the WNBA players are not as good as the NBA players. And because they aren't as good, they don't get as large an audience. But they still get a much bigger audience, and thus get paid a lot more, than I would if I were to try to play professionally.

 

[Boudicca90]

Nope.

It's anti-Hubbard animus.

I believe - and men's weightlifting is a sport I've been close to for 50 years - that Hubbard exploited the rules and is not a genuine trans woman.

Supported by its jillionaire daddy, Hubbard had never done a day's work in its life, spending all its time training to break into the top echelon of men's weightlifting. And fail.

In a remarkable coincidence, Hubbard decided it was a woman shortly after men were allowed to compete against women. I'm just thankful the rule change didn't happen at an earlier age, or it would hold unbeatable records in all weightlifting disciplines. Well, unbeatable until the next bloke pulled on panties.

SHE is a WOMAN.

Edited by xjx388: 

<SNIP>
Rule 0; Rule 12

She is a trailblazer and I wish her all success.

Edited by xjx388: 

<SNIP>
Rule 0; Rule 12

 

[Boudicca90]

That's my point, why the urge to fit in?
That isn't what the other letters do.

Also, you said "as a gay man previously", Yeah I get your urge to fit in, but are you saying that you can just choose?

I didn't choose to be a gay man, and I didn't choose to be a trans woman.

I did what I had to to survive, and that meant suppressing who I was and pretending to be someone I wasn't. I was always a trans woman, but my fears kept me from being who I was for almost two decades. And so I pretended to be a gay man.

 

[The Atheist]

SHE is a WOMAN.

Yeah, ok.

Your determination to relegate women to third class, behind both men and trans is noted.

At least you've answered an important question - trans activism is driven by misogyny.

 

[d4m10n]

SHE is a WOMAN.

What exactly makes Hubbard a woman?

What does this trailblazing athlete have in common with gender critical female authors who explicitly disdain the idea of gender and do not claim a gender identity for themselves?

Is the correct conclusion that Hubbard is a woman, but the GC females are not?

 

[Ziggurat]

SHE is a WOMAN.

I still don't know what your definition is for this. I know that it's not "adult human female", but I haven't heard an alternative definition that isn't circular.

 

[Meadmaker]

She is a trailblazer and I wish her all success.

She is a trailblazer for sure, but where does that trail lead?

 

[theprestige]

She is a trailblazer and I wish her all success.

Translation: She's breaking a few eggs, but that's okay because I really want that omelette.

 

[Distracted1]

When you find a female, check whether she is human and an adult. If she is, your work is done. But this works only for Oldspeak. For a Newspeak definition, you must seek elsewhere.

The mind-boggling denial of this obvious reality is what keeps drawing me back to this thread lengths some go to to dance around it remind me of a bit of nostalgic television:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_a_Good_Life_(The_Twilight_Zone)

 

[theprestige]

SHE is a WOMAN.

I add my voice to the request for a definition.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

I still don't know what your definition is for this. I know that it's not "adult human female", but I haven't heard an alternative definition that isn't circular.

As someone who thought they understood trans vocabulary and etiquette but decided to dig a bit deeper, I visited a few online resources and then referenced Wikipedia where I saw this definition:

A trans woman is a woman who was assigned male at birth.

There is a similarly styled definition for 'trans man'. Lots of problems with these definitions, IMO. First of all, it suggests that the words 'woman' and 'man' are properly used to denote a persons gender identity as opposed to their birth characteristics. Secondly, it appears to treat their birth characteristics (male of female) as being merely assigned. Curious stuff.