The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

[Vixen]

Yes. Are you having to keep reminding yourself that the part of the ship that the broken bow visor would have been banging against was not the bulbous bow?

The translation from Estonian was not somehting google translate could handle so I translated it as the bulbous bow area not the bulbous bow itself duh! And I even attached a pic explaining the area I was referring to for ease of reference and avoidance of doubt.

But then you knew that, didn't you?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Only an idiot would claim that as it was obviously not banging on the bulbous bow but the area above it.

So why have you spent the last few pages claiming it would have ?

 

[Vixen]

So why have you spent the last few pages claiming it would have ?

Now you are being facetious.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Fortuitously, we have a few survivors from Deck 1 the cheapo cheapo cabins. They all report water over their cabin floors but none coming down the stairs. Paradoxically, despite being furthest down, Reintamm was first up on deck 7 just in time to see something 'bright or white gliding away'.

Why would the water be coming down their specific stairs> which side of the ship were the stairs?

Most of the large openings were to the machinery spaces. Water would be flooding through the ship from there.

 

[LondonJohn]

The translation from Estonian was not somehting google translate could handle so I translated it as the bulbous bow area not the bulbous bow itself duh! And I even attached a pic explaining the area I was referring to for ease of reference and avoidance of doubt.

But then you knew that, didn't you?

No. That's not what happened at all, is it? What actually happened was that several of us were stating that the bow visor couldn't have been hitting the bulbous bow, while you kept insisting otherwise.

But then you knew that, didn't you?

 

[zooterkin]

Only an idiot would claim that as it was obviously not banging on the bulbous bow but the area above it.

Quite.

The bow visor lower part (atlantic lock area) would be banging on the bulbous bow area every time the thing moved forward and down.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

If it was AB seaman Linde, I would not believe him.

That's neither here nor there. Your question was about how a crewman could simultaneously be on the car deck and be elsewhere watching it on a monitor. The obvious answer is that these things were not simultaneous.

 

[Steve]

Quite.

Ouch!

 

[phiwum]

Technical term: forepeak deck.

Man, that is genuinely adorable.

 

[Vixen]

Why would the water be coming down their specific stairs> which side of the ship were the stairs?

Most of the large openings were to the machinery spaces. Water would be flooding through the ship from there.

It'd have to get past the car deck doors first.

 

[Vixen]

No. That's not what happened at all, is it? What actually happened was that several of us were stating that the bow visor couldn't have been hitting the bulbous bow, while you kept insisting otherwise.

But then you knew that, didn't you?

You only need to look at the picture to see the bow visor is not anywhere near long enough to reach the bulbous bow itself.

I'm guessing that is exactly what some people on here thought.

 

[Vixen]

Quite.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Only an idiot would claim that as it was obviously not banging on the bulbous bow but the area above it.
Quite.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The bow visor lower part (atlantic lock area) would be banging on the bulbous bow area every time the thing moved forward and down.

Well done! You spotted I said 'bulbous bow area' just as I said I did.

 

[Vixen]

That's neither here nor there. Your question was about how a crewman could simultaneously be on the car deck and be elsewhere watching it on a monitor. The obvious answer is that these things were not simultaneous.

Ah right. The JAIC said the bow visor fell off at 1:15...to allow for Linde to have run here and there and back again - together with helping the passengers into safety vests - and to get into his survivor suit and life raft. So it must have fallen off some twenty minutes after Linde was pissing about welding trying to get rid of smuggled drugs happened to be standing at the forward ramp as it happened to make a loud bang almost knocking him off his feet with the upwards swell and had to wait five minutes before zooming down two floors then up seven floors then handing out life vests, changing and just as the bell visor fell off, leapt onto a life raft.

 

[Andy_Ross]

It'd have to get past the car deck doors first.

Lots of doors off the car deck, lots of vents and openings. Once the ship was over far enough there would be no way of stopping it getting below.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Ah right. The JAIC said the bow visor fell off at 1:15...to allow for Linde to have run here and there and back again - together with helping the passengers into safety vests - and to get into his survivor suit and life raft. So it must have fallen off some twenty minutes after Linde was pissing about welding trying to get rid of smuggled drugs happened to be standing at the forward ramp as it happened to make a loud bang almost knocking him off his feet with the upwards swell and had to wait five minutes before zooming down two floors then up seven floors then handing out life vests, changing and just as the bell visor fell off, leapt onto a life raft.

Are you drunk?

 

[Matthew Best]

I am. I've been playing a drinking game where I have a drink every time Vixen.. - well, I've said too much.

 

[Vixen]

Are you drunk?

I don't drink (except on special occasions).

Rude.

 

[Axxman300]

Sinking occurs only, when the weight of the ship and cargo exceeds the available buoyancy of the hull. In the Estonia AIUI this was 18,000 tonnes so loading 40,000 tonnes of metal on to the superstructure is just silly and it would sink like a stone.

However, it could handle the 2,000 tonnes ingress of water because with its tonnage of 15.5 tonnes with maximum allowed cargo and passengers (it was only half occupied 28.9.1994) if it capsized due to imbalance, it would simply float upside down.

Try it. Get an empty plastic bottle. Fill up a kitchen sink or bath. Throw the bottle in. It floats of course. Now half fill it with [very heavy] water and throw it in. Guess what it still floats! Now fill it completely with water. It immediately sinks. Why? It is all to do with displacement of air.

If the car deck was never violently filled with sea water nor breached its doors with a 9cm water barrier, then there is no way the vessel would have sunk.

So the JAIC had to assume it breached the doors, smashed windows on the next deck up and this displacement of air by very heavy water caused the sinking. However, it would still take time for it to displace all of the air in each of the cabins.

However, Kurm's investigators found the car deck doors shut and intact.

You left out the part where the bow ramp was yanked open by the visor as it fell off exposing the car deck to the open ocean while traveling into the large waves as flank speed.

I know, it takes the mystery out of it.

 

[Dabop]

I am. I've been playing a drinking game where I have a drink every time Vixen.. - well, I've said too much.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/215627
Please check to see if you have any symptoms....
Even using a shotglass would have your alcohol levels at a fatally high level...

 

[Vixen]

You left out the part where the bow ramp was yanked open by the visor as it fell off exposing the car deck to the open ocean while traveling into the large waves as flank speed.

I know, it takes the mystery out of it.

How did these two guys manage to climb down it then?


Antti Arak and Ain-Alar Juhanson are the two persons on the bow of M/S Estonia. They claim they walked on the horizontal side of the ship to the bow and climbed down on a closed ramp, the ship was rolling in full storm, when the list was 90° at around 01.30 hrs ... and that the visor was missing! Where did they grip their hands?

See Strathclyde Uni graphic.