Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[Cain]

[from the report]

There was no negative reaction towards transgender men’s involvement in male sport for instance: This points to the issue being related to notions of fairness in sport rather than antipathy to transgender people in general.

Similarly, gay men face restrictions on donating blood, but it's not an anti-gay policy as lesbians can readily donate. Gay men are just a higher-risk category (making up a small percentage of the population, but a relatively large fraction of the HIV caseload).

 

[The Atheist]

Haha! All the way back to the OP with this one:

Otago University Hands Sportswoman of the Year to Laurel Hubbard.

Considering it finished last at the Olympics, and when Otago Uni has provided Courtney Duncan, who retained her world champion motocross status, I believe the award being given to Hubbard is purely political.

 

[Lord Muck oGentry]

As this thread has developed, we've seen a clear progression. The goal is not to decouple gender from sex. The goal is to eliminate the clarity of fact altogether. I was all set to not only accept, but wholeheartedly support, the ambiguation of "man" and "woman". Until I realized that it's actually just a dress rehearsal for the ambiguation of "male" and "female".

The Principle of Explosion takes reprisal on illiteracy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion

 

[Lord Muck oGentry]

words and descriptions and definitions change over time, notwithstanding the harking back to whatever you are banging on about.

Banging on about this or that aside, how many legs has a dog got... I suppose you know the rest.

 

[LondonJohn]

Haha! All the way back to the OP with this one:

Otago University Hands Sportswoman of the Year to Laurel Hubbard.

Considering it finished last at the Olympics, and when Otago Uni has provided Courtney Duncan, who retained her world champion motocross status, I believe the award being given to Hubbard is purely political.

"It"?

I see. Tell me more about this anti-transgender animus of yours.

 

[Meadmaker]

"It"?

I see. Tell me more about this anti-transgender animus of yours.

The Atheist does not generally call transgender people "it".

The Atheist does call Laurel Hubbard "it".


Draw whatever inference you think is reasonable based on those two statements. (If it seems confusing, and are not sure what to make of it, you can read The Atheist's prior statements concerning Laurel Hubbard.)

 

[Manger Douse]

"It"?

I see. Tell me more about this anti-transgender animus of yours.

If it remember correctly The Atheist has dated Transwomen

 

[angrysoba]

"It"?

I see. Tell me more about this anti-transgender animus of yours.

The Atheist does not generally call transgender people "it".

The Atheist does call Laurel Hubbard "it".


Draw whatever inference you think is reasonable based on those two statements. (If it seems confusing, and are not sure what to make of it, you can read The Atheist's prior statements concerning Laurel Hubbard.)

If it remember correctly The Atheist has dated Transwomen

Black people?! Me prejudiced against black people?!?!? Absolutely not.

Some of my best friends...

Hell, I dated one of them...

I call one black person the n-word and everyone freaks out!

 

[Manger Douse]

On a related note, if there was as much medical evidence of trans-race as there were trans gender, would any of the Self ID proponents be happy to allow a white person to self-id themselves an n-word pass?

 

[angrysoba]

On a related note, if there was as much medical evidence of trans-race as there were trans gender, would any of the Self ID proponents be happy to allow a white person to self-id themselves an n-word pass?

I think that you make a bad analogy here. The analogy would be if a white person could call a "transracial" man an n-word. Let's say that white guy Bob decided to identify as black so white guy Tom decided to call him an n-word. Do we think that white guy Tom has a point? If Tom said that he once dated a black chick and his friends were black, would it mean Tom gets to use the n-word. Or would Tom be racist to do so?

If you understand that point, then you might understand why it comes across as transphobic to use the word "it".


To your wider point, maybe people could be transracial.

And maybe it is unfair for transwomen to compete in women's sports.

You can believe these things without thinking that it excuses transphobia.

 

[Manger Douse]

My question wasn't meant as analogy to TheAtheists post

 

[angrysoba]

My question wasn't meant as analogy

You mean it was off-topic? Okay, start a new thread about it because you shouldn't expect any replies if it is not an analogy.

 

[Manger Douse]

You mean it was off-topic? Okay, start a new thread about it because you shouldn't expect any replies if it is not an analogy.

It's off topic in the sense I wasn't replying to you but it's 100% on topic for this thread and certainly doesn't require a new one to be started.

Now, fancy a crack at it?

 

[angrysoba]

It's off topic in the sense I wasn't replying to you but it's 100% on topic for this thread and certainly doesn't require a new one to be started.

Now, fancy a crack at it?

I already did.

 

[LondonJohn]

The Atheist does not generally call transgender people "it".

The Atheist does call Laurel Hubbard "it".


Draw whatever inference you think is reasonable based on those two statements. (If it seems confusing, and are not sure what to make of it, you can read The Atheist's prior statements concerning Laurel Hubbard.)

Ah, so am I "confused" in thinking that because this particular transwoman has apparently upset or angered The Atheist (by competing as a woman), this therefore gives The Atheist some sort of permission to address her as "it"?

Am I somewhere close? Please put me out of my confusion, if I'm inferring incorrectly.


(And your role here as an apologist for The Atheist's post is duly noted.)

 

[LondonJohn]

I think that you make a bad analogy here. The analogy would be if a white person could call a "transracial" man an n-word. Let's say that white guy Bob decided to identify as black so white guy Tom decided to call him an n-word. Do we think that white guy Tom has a point? If Tom said that he once dated a black chick and his friends were black, would it mean Tom gets to use the n-word. Or would Tom be racist to do so?

If you understand that point, then you might understand why it comes across as transphobic to use the word "it".


To your wider point, maybe people could be transracial.

And maybe it is unfair for transwomen to compete in women's sports.

You can believe these things without thinking that it excuses transphobia.

Quite.

And deliberately referring to a transgender person as "it" is....... pretty transphobic, n'est-ce pas?

(But yeah, apparently it's perfectly OK to do so if the transgender person in question has participated in a sport in accordance with regulations. Or something.)

 

[LondonJohn]

If it remember correctly The Atheist has dated Transwomen

Unless this was meant to be satirical, it was a pretty ill-judged contribution to any assessment of the matter in hand.

 

[LondonJohn]

Black people?! Me prejudiced against black people?!?!? Absolutely not.

Some of my best friends...

Hell, I dated one of them...

I call one black person the n-word and everyone freaks out!

Ah, but special dispensations apply when it comes to being transphobic towards transgender athletes.

(Or so some people in this thread seem to think, anyhow)

 

[angrysoba]

Ah, but special dispensations apply when it comes to being transphobic towards transgender athletes.

(Or so some people in this thread seem to think, anyhow)

Yes, and I will maintain it is not transphobic to question or even deny that transgender athletes should be able to compete in sports they have transitioned to, but that it is transphobic to insult a person on the basis that they are transgender. How could it be any other way?

 

[Manger Douse]

I already did.

You gave an answer to your own question when you mistakenly thought I was making an analogy - how about you answer it now knowing that it isn't an analogy?