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The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

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The question is what scientists mean by "is consistent with." You got the wrong answer. It is not a statistical argument.

No scientist worth their salt handed a piece of metal that clearly looks like it has been blown to pieces will make a categorical statement at a press conference to that effect. Of course they will couch their statement in cautious terms, as Westermann did, and add the disclaimer that it still needs to be further investigated. It would be grossly irresponsible not to, even if it were obvious to you as to what has happened. What she can say is what it is not.


Westermann's specialist research subject is the properties of steel and aluminium.
 
It is rather interesting, is it not, that whilst all the senior officers died, those actually down below - for example in the engine room - wasted no time in getting their body warmers and survival suits on.
If you today participate in a "Basic Safety" course, based on IMO STCW Manila 95, you will be told to prioritise putting on the survival suite in an emergency. I'm not sure how earlier trainings were set up, but if you have (cold) water where it shouldn't be, a survival suite is quite useful.

Regarding the captain, the maritime tradition is that "the captain goes down with the ship", and as such, they may not prioritise a survival suite for themselves.
 
Again, you are judging people by your own standards. I do not bluff. Everything I write is in good faith. Your claim that it is not, is perhaps you projecting your own standards onto others.

Do you really not think that it's obvious what you're doing?

Why don't you just answer the questions posed to you instead of attempting to engage in a shadow play?
 
Jay Utah kept bringing up the subject of whether I had any background in physics, not me. Clear now?

You introduced arguments based on physics, including but not limited to the work of Prof. Amdahl. People knowledgeable in physics gave you well-reasoned rebuttals, which you simply brushed off. You insisted instead that the professor's work -- as you interpreted it, and later tried to "correct" him on -- had to be accepted as represented. Your ability to understand the physics arguments you made, citing others as authority, and your ability to understand how the rebuttals work is therefore supremely relevant. And you assured us, despite your manifest lack of competence in basic Newtonian dynamics, that you were sufficiently educated in physics to understand the arguments and rebuttals. That contradiction requires additional details, whereupon you revealed that your "five years" of study in physics had been at a decidedly junior level -- not at, say, the college level where it's taught completely differently than to youngsters.

As much as you want to present to the world that JayUtah (as with LondonJohn, no intervening space) is picking on you inappropriately, the problem is and always has been your desire to be accepted as knowledgeable on topics you clearly can't demonstrate proficiency in. I'm perfectly happy not knowing a damn thing about the Yom Kippur War, or principles of chartered accountancy, or how to grow orchids. That others know far more about such things than I do doesn't scare me. When the conversation turns to them, I listen instead of talk. This doesn't seem to be how you want to go about life. I'm not questioning your choices, but in contexts like debates at ISF, bluffing has consequences.
 
If you today participate in a "Basic Safety" course, based on IMO STCW Manila 95, you will be told to prioritise putting on the survival suite in an emergency. I'm not sure how earlier trainings were set up, but if you have (cold) water where it shouldn't be, a survival suite is quite useful.

Regarding the captain, the maritime tradition is that "the captain goes down with the ship", and as such, they may not prioritise a survival suite for themselves.

That homily sounds fine on paper but in reality, I feel sure that if Capt Andresson was not incapacitated he surely would have given the correct May Day message at least fifteen minutes earlier and arranged evacuation sooner.

Many of the survivors who escaped wearing nothing but underpants or nightwear - as that is how incredibly little time they had to get out - expressed surprise to find on getting into a life raft (cf Barney, Sörman) the crew fully kitted out. So the crews' claims that they were running around all over the place seem a bit unlikely.
 
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You introduced arguments based on physics, including but not limited to the work of Prof. Amdahl. People knowledgeable in physics gave you well-reasoned rebuttals, which you simply brushed off. You insisted instead that the professor's work -- as you interpreted it, and later tried to "correct" him on -- had to be accepted as represented. Your ability to understand the physics arguments you made, citing others as authority, and your ability to understand how the rebuttals work is therefore supremely relevant. And you assured us, despite your manifest lack of competence in basic Newtonian dynamics, that you were sufficiently educated in physics to understand the arguments and rebuttals. That contradiction requires additional details, whereupon you revealed that your "five years" of study in physics had been at a decidedly junior level -- not at, say, the college level where it's taught completely differently than to youngsters.

As much as you want to present to the world that JayUtah (as with LondonJohn, no intervening space) is picking on you inappropriately, the problem is and always has been your desire to be accepted as knowledgeable on topics you clearly can't demonstrate proficiency in. I'm perfectly happy not knowing a damn thing about the Yom Kippur War, or principles of chartered accountancy, or how to grow orchids. That others know far more about such things than I do doesn't scare me. When the conversation turns to them, I listen instead of talk. This doesn't seem to be how you want to go about life. I'm not questioning your choices, but in contexts like debates at ISF, bluffing has consequences.

I told you straight out I had no expertise in metallurgy. I had no problem at all in saying so. I have never pretended to have expertise when I do not.
 
Again, you are judging people by your own standards. I do not bluff. Everything I write is in good faith. Your claim that it is not, is perhaps you projecting your own standards onto others.

Then why do you reject or ignore corrections when you are wrong over plain matters of fact?
 
That was in response to LondonJohn claiming that Westermann didn't say it was 100% certain it was a detonation


No, Vixen. That was not what I claimed (or stated, or implied) at all. Stop misrepresenting me. Go back and read things properly before attempting to represent other people's points of view.



and I explained that is not how scientists present their results.


You "explained" nothing of the sort: you launched into a completely irrelevant spiel about confidence levels in statistical analysis, which itself contained errors.
 
I was merely correcting your rude statement that I was not.

Imagine if I were to announce, 'You are not an engineer'. You will respond 'I am an engineer'.

Understand now?

Except he is an engineer. You are an accountant, which while impressive and something I can't claim does not make you a scientist.
 
No scientist worth their salt handed a piece of metal that clearly looks like it has been blown to pieces will make a categorical statement at a press conference to that effect. Of course they will couch their statement in cautious terms, as Westermann did, and add the disclaimer that it still needs to be further investigated. It would be grossly irresponsible not to, even if it were obvious to you as to what has happened. What she can say is what it is not.


Westermann's specialist research subject is the properties of steel and aluminium.


Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
:rolleyes:
 
I was merely correcting your rude statement that I was not.

So add some appropriate detail to the correction. What exactly have you done to "practice science?"

Imagine if I were to announce, 'You are not an engineer'. You will respond 'I am an engineer'.

Yes, and if pressed I could speak at length about what I did to attain that and how I have practiced it for thirty years. You seem to be either unable or unwilling to do the same for your claims.

You made statements that presumed you knew how scientists do their work. You're being asked to provide the foundation for that purported knowledge. You're not being picked on.
 
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