The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

[Vixen]

"The crash of the ferry "Estonia". There could be an explosion"

"The film, shot this summer during the official inspection of the wreck of the "Estonia" ferry resting at the bottom of the Baltic Sea, shows serious damage to the hull. Deformations may indicate an explosion, Swedish Radio (SR) reported on Monday." - A Polish Newspaper reports today.

There was an explosion?

Swedish Radio published high-resolution photos on the internet on Monday, showing fragments of the hull's steel structure bent outwards. According to the researchers cited by SR, this indicates "severe deformation" and "external force". Experts say the black outline may indicate a pyrotechnic explosion, alternatively they are a trace of an anaerobic environment on the seabed - this requires research.

Too early to say it was an explosion in the starboard IMV. However, it would explain why the crew were busy with the bilge pumps in the engine room and would explain the bangs the survivor eye witnesses claim to have heard before the violent heeling. The military explosives expert consulted by Evertsson in his documentary didn't think it followed the pattern, and of course, Professor Amdahl thought it was externally inflicted damage.

 

[JesseCuster]

That 'nuclear waste' dissolved the bow of the ship?

Do you think that is remotely likely?

I am not ruling anything out, as I have seen what happened in Paldiski.

You're not ruling out the idea that nuclear waste dissolved the bow visor which caused water to rush onto the car deck and caused the Estonia to sink? Have I got that right?

And your source for that hypothesis is a Finnish satire website called Hikipedia?

 

[Vixen]

I've been posting to internet forums since the days of USENET, back in the late 1980s. Yourself?

But this is not about an "internet convention." When someone pointed out that this was not accepted screenwriting convention, you very clearly stated, "Of course it is."

It is not.

Now you're frantically trying to change horses and claim your original statement meant something else. Because, as I said, some people simply cannot stomach the idea that they've been caught making a mistake, no matter how minor.

You're not infallible. Stop pretending to be.

I have been using this terminology for years and so has my circle of internet acquaintances. You just want to pick a fihgt. (There, I've left a typo for someone to ponce on.)

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The film clip can also be seen here: Sverige Radio.

When it looks into the gap we can plainly see a vehicle axle and wheels inside the ship. So it does at least help put to bed one persistent squabble: the hole leads through into the car deck, which was of course above the waterline.

 

[junkshop]

"the black outline may indicate a pyrotechnic explosion*, alternatively they are a trace of an anaerobic environment on the seabed**"

*Something the ship may have been exposed to.

**Something the the ship was definitley exposed to.

 

[JayUtah]

I have been using this terminology for years and so has my circle of internet acquaintances.

Good for you. That doesn't make it appropriate screenwriting terminology or universal internet slang, both of which I guarantee I know more about than you do. You backpedaled from it being common screenwriting usage, to it being common internet usage that everyone should know, to it being your private jargon among you and your friends. Where will you backpedal to now, I wonder?

You just want to pick a fihgt.

I want to see whether you will admit an error, or whether you will always double-down on even the smallest, least relevant details. I want to see if you can admit to being fallible. Because if you can't, a lot of the past 140 pages leaps suddenly into sharp focus. If you can't admit you're wrong on the trivial stuff, what does that say about the serious stuff where the stakes are much higher for saving face?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

"the black outline may indicate a pyrotechnic explosion*, alternatively they are a trace of an anaerobic environment on the seabed**"

*Something the ship may have been exposed to.

**Something the the ship was definitley exposed to.

I wonder if they have considered comparing the area of blackening with its appearance in older photographs of the damage.

 

[junkshop]

I wonder if they have considered comparing the area of blackening with its appearance in older photographs of the damage.

That's just crazy talk!

Scratch that. The earlier pictures of the hole are still pretty recent (2020 iirc?), as the damage wasn't visible at the time of the original investigation, due to the way the wreck lay.

 

[phiwum]

Can we ignore little differences over the proper usage of "fx" and the speed of a cannonball? Let's try and focus on things that are actually relevant disagreements and not every bit of extraneous nonsense we can criticize.

(Apologies if the cannonball speed was relevant. I can't recall how that subject was raised and didn't check before writing this.)

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Are you high? At no point in my post did I say anything about Paldiski. I made two very specific points, neither of which was about Paldiski.

Captain_Swoop asked what happened in Paldiski.

I asked how nuclear waste could destroy the ships bow and if you know what nuclear waste is.

Why are you running away from this Vixen?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Can we ignore little differences over the proper usage of "fx" and the speed of a cannonball? Let's try and focus on things that are actually relevant disagreements and not every bit of extraneous nonsense we can criticize.

(Apologies if the cannonball speed was relevant. I can't recall how that subject was raised and didn't check before writing this.)

The cannonball is (sort of) relevant because it exposes just how poor Vixen's understanding of physics is, as well as clearly illuminating her feeble attempts to gaslight people.

Vixen, can you seriously not accept that you are in error about anything?

 

[whoanellie]

Can we ignore little differences over the proper usage of "fx" and the speed of a cannonball? Let's try and focus on things that are actually relevant disagreements and not every bit of extraneous nonsense we can criticize.



(Apologies if the cannonball speed was relevant. I can't recall how that subject was raised and didn't check before writing this.)

Fair enough but what are the serious, substantive questions that can be addressed? Has Vixen raised any? We are all just playing the hand she has dealt.

 

[Axxman300]

"The film, shot this summer during the official inspection of the wreck of the "Estonia" ferry resting at the bottom of the Baltic Sea, shows serious damage to the hull. Deformations may indicate an explosion, Swedish Radio (SR) reported on Monday." - A Polish Newspaper reports today.




Too early to say it was an explosion in the starboard IMV. However, it would explain why the crew were busy with the bilge pumps in the engine room and would explain the bangs the survivor eye witnesses claim to have heard before the violent heeling. The military explosives expert consulted by Evertsson in his documentary didn't think it followed the pattern, and of course, Professor Amdahl thought it was externally inflicted damage.

And yet in your other post linking to the new footage they said this:

The black parts that appear in the film can be so-called grave rust, which has the potential to form even in an oxygen-poor environment, says Professor Anders Ulfvarson. Like, for example, down at the bottom around Estonia's wreck. But to know for sure, the material must be analyzed carefully, he says.

- Everyone who looks at this sees that it is very broken. It can cause you to start speculating. But it is better to wait until you get additional information about what these surfaces have gone through. If you were to guess that it has something to do with pyrotechnics, it will be able to be revealed by metallographers, says Anders Ulfvarson.

All I see with my untrained eye is a stress fracture in the hull of a large ship right along the the seem of the hull plating (that is where two sections of steel plates are joined together for you slower people). What I'd love to know is how far is this hole from one of the expansion joints? I ask because I suspect it would explain why some of the steel is pointing outward.

What I don't see is an explosion.

What I also see is the same hole from the documentary and no other "holes".

 

[Andy_Ross]

Swedish Radio published high-resolution photos on the internet on Monday, showing fragments of the hull's steel structure bent outwards. According to the researchers cited by SR, this indicates "severe deformation" and "external force".

If the plate is bent outwards and it was an explosion, how was it an "external force"?
If it was external then the plate would be bent inwards.

As we can see bits of vehicle through the hole, how can it be below the waterline?

 

[junkshop]

"The film, shot this summer during the official inspection of the wreck of the "Estonia" ferry ...." - A Polish Newspaper reports today.

Hang on, official inspection? I was under the impression that this was not that. Have I got that wrong?

 

[Vixen]

The cannonball is (sort of) relevant because it exposes just how poor Vixen's understanding of physics is, as well as clearly illuminating her feeble attempts to gaslight people.

Vixen, can you seriously not accept that you are in error about anything?

Stop trying to dig yourself out of a hole.

 

[Vixen]

Hang on, official inspection? I was under the impression that this was not that. Have I got that wrong?

The Arikas one in July is the officially approved one. Kurm's current expedition is one approved by survivors groups and a media group (for the funding).

 

[junkshop]

The Arikas one in July is the officially approved one. Kurm's current expedition is one approved by survivors groups and a media group (for the funding).

Thank you for the clarification.

I guess your "Polish Newspaper" source (dziennik.pl) plays a little fast and loose with facts, then?

Maybe not too reliable?

 

[Vixen]

Progress Report from Kurm's Expedition

Some important pictures from the car deck have been released today

---

27.09.2021 The camera of an underwater robot sent to the car deck of the wreck of Estonia yesterday afternoon recorded that two of the doors leading to the lower decks are intact and closed. According to Margus Kurm, the leader of the expedition, this is an important finding, because the official reports take into account the assumption that the doors broke due to water pressure. [source: Postimees]

===


This touches on the discussion as to whether the flooding the lower cabin passengers experienced was due to water rising up from Deck 0 (the hull) or trickling down from the car deck, which took up two floors - up to Deck 4 - and is 5m high. The car Deck is on Deck 2 and 3. The cheapo passenger cabins were on Deck 1, just above Deck 0, which contained just the swimming pool and sauna and the all-important engine room.


Thus, the above new report indicates very clearly that the car deck doors, with the 9cm water barrier just inside the doors, show them to be firmly shut (and thus sealed, as they are designed to be) from the stairs descending downwards and upwards outside of them.

So Reintaam is vindicated when he said he saw no water coming down the stairs but did have water sloshing around his cabin in Deck 1.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Stop trying to dig yourself out of a hole.

What hole exactly am I attempting to dig myself out of?

Are you claiming that the muzzle velocity of a cannon is the same as the velocity of the cannonball in flight, yes or no?