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The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

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Captain_Swoop said:
I know of the time difference, I was asking you what time the crew changed.
You said at one, you didn't say if that was Swedish or Estonian time.
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No need to justify it to me. I was merely pointing out to whomever it was, that everybody has a right to make a mistake or to not know something.

FWIW, the JAIC has put everything in Estonian (EET) time to save confusion.
 
LondonJohn said:
Ahh my mistake then: I'd stupidly assumed that since your posts in this thread demonstrate such astoundingly-high levels of forensic knowledge/understanding of all things military, you'd therefore be bound to know that this exact rank (and at the same level of officer grade) exists within the British and US armies as well.

My apologies.
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I had two brothers in the British Army and they only got to Captain level before demobbing, so not connaissant, except that driving a tank seems to be the ultimate dream of new recruits.
 
Vixen said:
No need to justify it to me. I was merely pointing out to whomever it was, that everybody has a right to make a mistake or to not know something.

FWIW, the JAIC has put everything in Estonian (EET) time to save confusion.
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No: what time did the ship's watch* change over? If you don't know the answer, well - as you say - you certainly have the right not to know it. But if that's the case, you definitely don't have the right to post under the pretence that you do.


* For clarity: I'm not talking about when people changed the time on their watches to local time.......
 
LondonJohn said:
No: what time did the ship's watch* change over? If you don't know the answer, well - as you say - you certainly have the right not to know it. But if that's the case, you definitely don't have the right to post under the pretence that you do.


* For clarity: I'm not talking about when people changed the time on their watches to local time.......
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I said, the watch changed at 1:00. (EET). Midnight Swedish time.
 
Anyway it's much more likely that the Russian security services in 1994 were facilitating and profiting from the exfiltration of Soviet military tech, than that they were patriotically trying to prevent such.

Of course by that time, Vladimir Putin was well out of it, and fully involved in his own kleptocratic power schemes.
 
theprestige said:
Anyway it's much more likely that the Russian security services in 1994 were facilitating and profiting from the exfiltration of Soviet military tech, than that they were patriotically trying to prevent such.

Of course by that time, Vladimir Putin was well out of it, and fully involved in his own kleptocratic power schemes.
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He certainly didn't change into 'Mr. Nice Guy' in the interim.
 
theprestige said:
Anyway it's much more likely that the Russian security services in 1994 were facilitating and profiting from the exfiltration of Soviet military tech, than that they were patriotically trying to prevent such.

Of course by that time, Vladimir Putin was well out of it, and fully involved in his own kleptocratic power schemes.
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Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Putin and anyone with power in Russia in the 90's was busy lining their own pockets in whatever manner they could... .except...

Your forgetting that one remaining ultra patriotic (to the Fatherland! :confused: ) Spetsnaz unit that managed to tow a WW2 sea mine directly in front of the Estonia so she hit it at exactly midnight (Swedish time!!!). Then rammed her with a mini sub just to be safe, while also infiltrating the crew cause how else can you explain someone with a tattoo being on the bridge?! It was a last gasp to teach those klepto's a lesson damnit!
 
lobosrul5 said:
Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Putin and anyone with power in Russia in the 90's was busy lining their own pockets in whatever manner they could... .except...

Your forgetting that one remaining ultra patriotic (to the Fatherland! :confused: ) Spetsnaz unit that managed to tow a WW2 sea mine directly in front of the Estonia so she hit it at exactly midnight (Swedish time!!!). Then rammed her with a mini sub just to be safe, while also infiltrating the crew cause how else can you explain someone with a tattoo being on the bridge?! It was a last gasp to teach those klepto's a lesson damnit!
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No, it’s very obvious that it was an ekranoplan.
 
Vixen said:
He certainly didn't change into 'Mr. Nice Guy' in the interim.
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No-one said he did. Also, since you have said Putin is not relevant, I'm not sure why you're telling us about how much power he has over the FSB as president of Russia or how he's not a nice guy.
 
Vixen said:
I said, the watch changed at 1:00. (EET). Midnight Swedish time.
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Have you got a reference for that? You have gone to the trouble of telling us that, unlike others, your posts are sourced, cited and properly referenced.

I know I keep harping on about it, but when you make such a claim and then continue to post further claims without any sources or references, then surely you can only expect to be called on it.
 
Haha yes!

But actually what gets me is why anyone would go to all that trouble to exfiltrate Soviet tech in the first place. By 1994 it would already have been obvious to experts that the Soviets were lagging behind the west in all key areas of military technology. Electronics, materials, processes... Sweden must have known it was already at least a decade ahead of whatever the Russians had to offer at that point. Why would they invest any resources at all in getting their hands on 80s-era Soviet air defense radar tech, or whatever? Why would the Russians be even a little bit fussed about such leakage anyway? Those horses all left the barn when the USSR collapsed in the first place.
 
theprestige said:
"Since the requirements for designing a submarine are practically opposed to those of an airplane, the performance expected from such a construction is usually rather moderate."
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Just because no practical (in a military sense) flying submarine has ever been built should not rule out the fact that a Russian Spetsnaz force COULD have used one in 1994 to sink the Estonia, as a quadruple backup in case the planted charges, mini-sub, and towed sea mine, all failed.
 
If Western intelligence agencies just wanted to get a peek at ex-Soviet hardware left behind in Estonia, I wonder why it never occurred to them to, you know, go to Estonia and maybe bribe whoever was guarding it instead of paying them to nick it and escort it to a ferry heading for Sweden. Not so intelligent after all, eh?
 
theprestige said:
Haha yes!

But actually what gets me is why anyone would go to all that trouble to exfiltrate Soviet tech in the first place. By 1994 it would already have been obvious to experts that the Soviets were lagging behind the west in all key areas of military technology. Electronics, materials, processes... Sweden must have known it was already at least a decade ahead of whatever the Russians had to offer at that point. Why would they invest any resources at all in getting their hands on 80s-era Soviet air defense radar tech, or whatever? Why would the Russians be even a little bit fussed about such leakage anyway? Those horses all left the barn when the USSR collapsed in the first place.
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Yup just fact number, I dunno, 50 or so, that none of this makes any real sense. I could see say Iran, North Korea, or Al Qaeda being interested in it... Sweden is just a WTF. Why would they be interested in 10 year old tech that was probably 10 years out of date when it was new. The Soviets were falling further and further behind as the Cold War dragged on. I have doubts that even the CIA would be interested by 1994.
 
lobosrul5 said:
Just because no practical (in a military sense) flying submarine has ever been built should not rule out the fact that a Russian Spetsnaz force COULD have used one in 1994 to sink the Estonia, as a quadruple backup in case the planted charges, mini-sub, and towed sea mine, all failed.
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This attack with multiple backup plans must have taken ages to prepare in the intricate detail required ("military precision") and so they must have had great deal of information about their targets.

I wonder if there was a planning meeting where the head of cunning Spetsnaz plotting explained to Dr Evil Putin what they intended to do and Putin said "Somebody explain to me why don't you just go see these guys and stick some polonium or whatever in their tea.". I mean, the Russians weren't made of money in the '90s but they had some nasty **** left over. I bet the only reason the Head of Plotting didn't end up in the mutant sea bass tank is that the bass all got poisoned by toxic leaks from a bunch of laid-up Soviet submarines.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
If Western intelligence agencies just wanted to get a peek at ex-Soviet hardware left behind in Estonia, I wonder why it never occurred to them to, you know, go to Estonia and maybe bribe whoever was guarding it instead of paying them to nick it and escort it to a ferry heading for Sweden. Not so intelligent after all, eh?
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I wouldn't be surprised if Western experts were already overstocked just with stuff flooding out of Ukraine.

"Estonia's on the line. They want to know what we're offering for obsolete Soviet military tech."

"We're up to our ears in that crap already. The last thing we need is yet another Kh-15 guidance package. Ask them how much they'll charge to cart away some of this rubbish."

"... They're offering us a pretty reasonable price to put it on an Estonian RORO ferry bound for Sweden."

"What? Why on Earth... You know what? I don't care. In fact, if they can arrange to just sink it to the bottom of the Baltic Sea, so much the better."

"Should I tell them you said that?"
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Skydiver

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Aha. So what you're saying is it wasn't a bow visor at all. It was a sooper seekrit rocket interceptor painted to look like the bow visor, and the Estonia sank because it was accidentally launched in mid voyage when the Estonia's combination ramp/blast shield wasn't locked in place.

Well that explains everything.
 
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