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The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

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Vixen said:
That ship was not brought down by a couple of amateur terrorists, as with the USS Cole.
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But it might have been brought down because of an accident caused by some inexperienced submarine buyers from the third world, right?
 
Jack by the hedge said:
That doesn't address my question. Have you any reason at all to think the object you say is a towel was not from some cabin at that height in the ship?

Knowing that the pool is on a lower deck does not magically move the damage down to the waterline.
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The towel is seen in the swimming pool area, in the hull.

Your saying it is above the waterline, does not make it so.
 
Vixen said:
Putin was head of the KGB and the newly formed post-Soviet agency as of the time of the accident.
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One, Putin was never head of the KGB.

Two, Putin did not resign from the KGB to join its successor agency. He just resigned.

Three, Putin was never head of the KGB's successor agency.

What advantage can you possibly see in making arguments that are wrong about every single point of fact, every single time?
 
The research group SA Mare Liberum Expedition update

The research group SA Mare Liberum
Kurm Expedition update

So Kurm's independent expedition, as funded by a survivors group and an Estonian media outlet, Postimees, set off on Saturday from the Netherlands [prt of Eemshaven in the research ship RS Sentinel. It is a two-day journey to the wreck site, so the research group SA Mare Liberum should be arriving soon.

Kurm vows to bring up the atlantic lock, if they find it, although they do not expect they will. If you recall the original investigators threw it back on to the seabed as being 'too heavy' for the helicopter.

"We have been preparing for the expedition for three months now and we remain optimistic. Our goal is to map all the damage suffered by the vessel, photograph and scan instances of such damage, as well as investigate the car deck and the surroundings of the wreck site," said Margus Kurm, the head of the SA Mare Liberum and the research project.

The dive to the wreck site will last approximately 10 days. A total of 46 people will take part in the expedition, including 18 ship crew members and six media representatives.


<snip>

Kurm has identified seven questions that the organizers want to get answers to during the expedition and subsequent analysis.

Materials gathered in the course of the investigation project will be analyzed by dr. Andrzej Jasionowski, who has previous experience with the disaster. In 2005-2008 he was a member of a scientific consortium that conducted studies for the Swedish government.

Scientific analysis should be ready by next spring.

SA Mare Liberum will also interview survivors. Additionally, a 3D model of the bow visor of Estonia has been created which gives the possibility to study the damage from a distance.
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https://news.err.ee/1608343046/research-group-starts-expedition-to-estonia-ferry-wreck

They are taking their own R.O.V. and will do a sight examination of the soil, perhaps bringing back samples.

It all seems really creepy, with the bodies all now skeletons. Ten days means they will be there on the 27the anniverary of the accident and may well cross paths with the annual boat memorial service conducted by the clergy.
 
theprestige said:
One, Putin was never head of the KGB.

Two, Putin did not resign from the KGB to join its successor agency. He just resigned.

Three, Putin was never head of the KGB's successor agency.

What advantage can you possibly see in making arguments that are wrong about every single point of fact, every single time?
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With the fall of the Soviet Union the KGB ceased to exist in 1991.

ETA So Putin was a Lieutenant Colonel, which is equivalent to Wing Commander in the RAF.

Correction: Putin went into politics after that so I was mistaken about his new role in 1994.
 
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Vixen said:
With the fall of the Soviet Union the KGB ceased to exist in 1991.
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Yes, I believe we all know this, I'm nearly certain theprestige does. You stated Putin was head of the KGB when Estonia sank. The KGB didn't exist then nor was Putin in it's successor organization. Nor was he ever head of the KGB.

ETA So Putin was a Lieutenant Colonel, which is equivalent to Wing Commander in the RAF.
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Ok... uh duly noted.
 
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Vixen said:
With the fall of the Soviet Union the KGB ceased to exist in 1991.

ETA So Putin was a Lieutenant Colonel, which is equivalent to Wing Commander in the RAF.
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in other words, several ranks below director of the KGB. He wasn’t leader of the KGB in 1991 and wasn’t in the FSB in 1994. He was a member of the St. Petersburg government at the time of the Estonia disaster.
 
Vixen said:
The KGB ceased to exist in 1991. Do pay attention.
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You have no idea at all, do you?

Putin resigned from the KGB in August 1991 - a couple of months before it (the KGB) ceased to exist in that form (in December 1991). You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that Putin only "stopped" working for the KGB because the KGB itself ceased to exist (ie that Putin continued to work in Russian state intelligence, just for the successor organisation to the KGB).

As you yourself say in that condescending tone: do pay attention.
 
Vixen said:
With the fall of the Soviet Union the KGB ceased to exist in 1991.

ETA So Putin was a Lieutenant Colonel, which is equivalent to Wing Commander in the RAF.

Correction: Putin went into politics after that so I was mistaken about his new role in 1994.
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Pretty much every argument you've offered so far in this thread has depended on mistaken facts. What advantage do you see in offering such arguments?
 
JesseCuster said:
How do you know this? Didn't you say that your post have sources, citations and proper references? :confused:
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Vixen says many things. Precious few can be reconciled, but she's just asking questions. You've got to keep an open mind, man (except where Carl Bildt is concerned, everything he says or does is part of a massive international conspiracy, obviously).
 
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junkshop said:
Vixen says many things. Precious few can be reconciled, but she's just asking questions. You've got to keep an open mind, man (except where Carl Bildt is concerned, everything he says or does is part of a massive international conspiracy, obviously).
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Vixen is having the time of her (internet) life.
 
Vixen said:
The KGB ceased to exist in 1991. Do pay attention.
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I am aware of that, but you specifically said he was the head of the KGB and the the replacement service at the time of the incident. He left the intelligence services in 1991 while it was still the KGB.

1991 Putin leaves the KGB. Later on that same year the KGB is dissolved. He wasn't head of the security service the. Why did you claim he was?

Do you consider yourself a expert on the KGB, yes or no?
 
Vixen said:
The towel is seen in the swimming pool area, in the hull.



Your saying it is above the waterline, does not make it so.
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Not my saying so, no. The photographs of the ship which have already been posted and thoroughly discussed make it above the water line.
 
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