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The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

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Vixen, are you claiming to be an expert in the workings of the KGB?

Are you still claiming that your interlocutors have made callous jokes at the expense of the dead?

Two very easy questions and yet you keep refusing to answer.
 
erwinl said:
It is well possible the original text by Meek, suggests a hit from a mine would be a possibility (and knowing little else at that moment, it could be construed as a reasonable possibility). Yet it is clear that by the time this book was written by Wilson, he did not use the mine option of Meek's text, but something else from it. Unfortunately we don't have the original Meek text as of now.
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And it appears Vixen doesn't have access to the text of the original Guardian article either. She can't answer elementary questions about what it says or who is the source of the claim the purported headline alludes to. She just assumes the claim is well founded.
 
JayUtah said:
And it appears Vixen doesn't have access to the text of the original Guardian article either. She can't answer elementary questions about what it says or who is the source of the claim the purported headline alludes to. She just assumes the claim is well founded.
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I had surmised this.
 
erwinl said:
That's a PDF of a book, published in 2006.

If the Google translate is correct it is written by Drew Wilson in order to prove: 'This book is based on a simple assumption: the hull of Estonia was broken below the waterline, causing a rapid sinking to the bottom of the Baltic Sea. Estonia is looking for an hole.'
(quote from page 8 of the PDF and translated from Estonian to English using Google Translate).
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If anyone wants to order the English version: https://www.amazon.com/Hole-Another-sinking-Estonia-September/dp/1492778362. Wilson is a journalist specializing in business analytics. He has no qualifications in shipping, shipbuilding, or forensic engineering. But Wilson's claims are not at issue here. He doesn't quote Meek in order to establish that a mine sank the ship. It's merely hinted at in the story title Wilson cites to for other reasons. Without Meek's text, there is no basis to believe that the claims of a sea mine were made by credible people who provided evidence of it. It may just have been a story that was making the rounds, much as today's headlines report alleged reproductive effects of the COVID vaccine. That such rumors and claims rise to the level of newsworthiness does not mean they are well founded.
 
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JayUtah said:
And it appears Vixen doesn't have access to the text of the original Guardian article either. She can't answer elementary questions about what it says or who is the source of the claim the purported headline alludes to. She just assumes the claim is well founded.
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Here is the relevant text from the article - which does in fact exist

Byline: JAMES MEEK in Tallinn and GREG MCIVOR in Stockholm

A WARTIME mine could have triggered the catastrophic sequence of events which led to the sinking of the ferry Estonia, the head of the company which operated the vessel claimed yesterday.

Johannes Johanson, the managing director of the firm, Estline, said he could not believe the power of the sea combined with technical weaknesses would have been enough to let water into the boat.

'We know that there were very big minefields in this region around Yuto, during the second world war,' he said.

'It's my personal opinion that it could have been something like that. It's very difficult to explain why this kind of big passenger ferry went down in such a short time.'
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whoanellie said:
Here is the relevant text from the article - which does in fact exist
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Thank you for finding it. So the context appears to be speculation by the head of the company that operated MS Estonia, and who therefore can have no ulterior motive for suggesting causes other than the condition of the vessel and the proficiency of the crew.
 
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Yup. No vested interests there at all, noesurree.

(Just like the yard which designed and built the ship having zero vested interest in claiming that the cause of the sinking was nothing whatsoever to do with the design or construction of the ship...)
 
whoanellie said:
Here is the relevant text from the article - which does in fact exist
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What's more likely? That a consistent pattern of poor maintenance and poor training at my firm eventually led to a maritime disaster for one of my ships? Or that a leftover mine, in a shipping lane plied by thousands of ships every year, somehow managed to remain untriggered for decades until one of my ships stumbled across it? I think the answer is clear, don't you?
 
A ww2 mine going off would have been more than some 'banging' and a bit of a lurch.

German mines of WW2 had charges of between 400 and 700 lb of an explosive called SW36 composed of 50% TNT, 8% hexanitrodiphenylamine (HND) and 25% aluminium powder.

Look at the video I linked earlier, that is the 'bang' to expect.
 
LondonJohn said:
And in fact, 1G mobile phone network/usage was very far from a "very niche product" in the Nordic countries by 1994. The first 1G phone call was made back in the late 70s, and the Nordic region was actually a world leader in 1G adoption.
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Yeah, but I bet there weren't any *Finnish* companies back then who were at the forefront of mobile phone technolgy. [/sarcasm]
 
whoanellie said:
Do you have a link to the article? Thank you in advance.
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No, fraid not. It is hard to find newspaper articles that go back that far on the internet. However, should be available in newspaper libraries. Just plug in the headline, date and newspaper and it should be available on microfiche. I am no longer in London so shan't get the chance to use my BL membership card.
 
Vixen said:
No, fraid not. It is hard to find newspaper articles that go back that far on the internet. However, should be available in newspaper libraries. Just plug in the headline, date and newspaper and it should be available on microfiche. I am no longer in London so shan't get the chance to use my BL membership card.
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Do you realize I found it for you?
 
Axxman300 said:
Helps for lay-people to skip to the end of accident reports heavy in technical explanations.

Getting hung up on communications is tricky because while Estonia couldn't reach shore-based radios she could talk to the other ship nearby...something that couldn't happen if the Russians, Royal Navy, or US Navy were jamming radios.

All that matters is the hood got knocked loose and fell off in heavy seas while te crew twiddled their thumbs.

Oh, and the the Estonia was a Ro-Go ferry, the USS Cole was a US Navy destroyer. It's like comparing apples to a warship.
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There was a huge NATO exercise at the time. How come not one of those vessels/aircraft overheard the May Day distress signals?

Whilst the crew were pretty hapless, it can't really be blamed on them as there would be no way to evacuate 1,000 within the ten minute time line they had, with about 80% tucked up asleep in their cabins across seven or eight decks. How can a few strong waves twist wrought iron/steel bolts and even if they did, the bow visor was not a plug, so even it did fall off that shouldn't have caused the ship to sink.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Don't forget it was not just a 'a few strong waves' but over a decade of strong waves and the bow visor was already known to have faults.
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It was certified seaworthy. According to the JAIC report it was seaworthy, evne though the APIRB buous were switched off, the life rafts still had 'Viking Sally' written on them - indicating sheer age - and many of the provisions included in the life rafts were missing. The life jackets had straps that were impossible for an adult to clasp together under the legs/crutch, hence they kept riding up over people's head, yet the vessel was deemed 'seaworthy'.
 
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