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Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

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Another entry in the "just trust me bro" file.

Dude your entire contribution to this thread has been "Just trust me bro" and then the every few weeks one of the bros in question sticks their head in the conversation goes "That's totally not what I'm saying. This dude doesn't speak for me."

Again you have constantly presented yourself as the Lorax for the Transgender Trees and been massively wrong about it multiple times and the Trees called you Treephobic.
 
Again we can't get that past the "OMG so we're going to have to setup genital checkers!" argument.

I don't disagree with it per se, just that as anything beyond a thought experiment it's dead on arrival.

I think a "no penis" area could work. We don't check for cigarettes when we let someone into a no-smoking area. Smokers are free to keep their cigarettes with them with the understanding that they will not use them in order to respect the rights of others in that particular area.
 
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No, this is another of those cases where you've been given repeated references and links and demonstrations, and you brush them off as either being "anecdotal" or "nutpicking".

Basically, reality doesn't agree with what you think it ought to be like, so you ignore anything that doesn't fit your pre-determined belief set.

Maybe if you stopped nutpicking anecdotes we could get through this impasse.
 
Dude your entire contribution to this thread has been "Just trust me bro" and then the every few weeks one of the bros in question sticks their head in the conversation goes "That's totally not what I'm saying. This dude doesn't speak for me."

Again you have constantly presented yourself as the Lorax for the Transgender Trees and been massively wrong about it multiple times and the Trees called you Treephobic.

Yes, my radical position that has been the law of the land in Canada for several years without major incident.

The recurring theme of this thread is a ton of doomsaying, hyperbolic nonsense from the anti trans side that routinely fails to materialize in anything beyond "black crime" spamming levels of discourse.
 
Yeah just like that aunt or uncle we all had with the "roommate" coming out as gay came as a total surprise to all of us as well.

:D :thumbsup: Yeah, I fondly remember my mother's female sibling coming out and being surprised that the rest of us already knew they were homosexual. Somehow they seemed to think that 25 yrs worth of "roommates" and never a male date to be seen was a good cover.

I also had several friends in high school and college who came out and were shocked that the general response was "Are you just now figuring out that you're same-sex attracted? Pal, we've known that for years!"
 
There are some people who are pretty truly androgynous. But not many.

It's more common in some ethnicities than in others. My understanding is shaky on this, but I glean that a good chunk of the tertiary sex characteristics (things correlated with one sex or the other, but not directly triggered as a result of sex) are largely the result of sexual selection. Thinks like height and foot size and even brow ridge vary by ethnicity. There are larger differences between males and females in, for instance, Scandinavia, than there are in, say, Vietnam. It's a fair bit easier for many people of Asian descent to present as androgynous than for people of Northern European or Central African descent to do so.

I'm curious to read up on that! Interestingly (to me, at least) across mammalian species, reduced sexual dimorphism is associated with monogamy (e.g. gibbons, the monogamous species of deer mice).
 
I think a "no penis" area could work. We don't check for cigarettes when we let someone into a no-smoking area. Smokers are free to keep their cigarettes with them with the understanding that they will not use them in order to respect the rights of others in that particular area.

I think in many cases it would work fairly well.

Like I've said countless times before... if a person passes well enough that nobody is likely to look at them askance, then no harm done. If, however, they expose genitals that aren't supposed to be there, they should expect to be asked to leave, and should honor that request.

That solves for the vast majority of social situations - restrooms, changing rooms, locker rooms, etc. It shouldn't be that hard to use common sense.
 
I'm curious to read up on that! Interestingly (to me, at least) across mammalian species, reduced sexual dimorphism is associated with monogamy (e.g. gibbons, the monogamous species of deer mice).

I'd like to read up on it too! It was something told to me by someone who hypothetically knows about this, so I'm far from knowledgeable myself.

I did find some stuff tracking differences in height and differences in foot size between males and females by country, I'll see if I can find it again.
 
I'd like to read up on it too! It was something told to me by someone who hypothetically knows about this, so I'm far from knowledgeable myself.

I did find some stuff tracking differences in height and differences in foot size between males and females by country, I'll see if I can find it again.


Deleted- computer issues.
 
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Perhaps. But that's frequently not worthwhile.



Well, no. Obviously you don't. Oh, I'm sure you frequently extend certain courtesies to people which they desire, but only within bounds that you have set. And when they want to be treated outside the bounds that you set, no, you absolutely won't treat them the way that they want to be treated. And that is right and proper, to do otherwise is simply to invite being exploited and victimized yourself. The only question is, where do you set the limits of what you're willing to accommodate? Because I guarantee that you have limits somewhere.
Why are people replying to what I have said with convoluted arguments of their own making? Arguing with themselves?

I've read to page 2, replied with this. I need to keep reading the thread.

edit: ok cool.
 
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Ok. Now, back to this.

What if a hot-blooded hetero cisman gets attracted to - and turned on by - a beautiful, confident woman at the next table to him in a restaurant? And then he overhears that his hormones have actually been stirred into action by...... a transwoman?!

Should he perhaps march over to her and demand an apology for making him feel so stupid and cheated in his now-wasted lust for her?

That would be stupid, and you know it, and there really is no meaningful connection.
I can't think this whole line of argument is going to end very well (logically-speaking) for you. But I'm sure you'll tell me how my example is entirely unrelated in every way to what you're describing... :thumbsup:

I wouldn't say "entirely" unrelated. I would say that there is just enough connection that it might be used to mislead people away from the obvious issue, which has no meaningful similarity to what you have described above.


(PS: If you want another counterexample to do the same treatment to.... how about a hetero cisman starting to date a ciswoman; they are both really into each other, and after several dates the man's thoughts turn to sex (intercourse) - something which to him is an extremely important component of any relationship - but it's at this point the woman tells him that because of serious complications from endometriosis, she's unable to have intercourse. Should our man feel cheated and slighted that this woman has - somehow, and in his eyes - misrepresented herself to him from the get-go?)

This one, on the other hand, is a bit closer.

First, as noted before, it is incredibly unlikely that it took several dates for the man's thoughts to turn to sexual intercourse. It probably happened before the first date, and certainly before the second, assuming the people involved are both young and single.

Now, exactly when, and how, the woman ought to reveal this issue is very complicated, and is influenced by culture, religion, their individual personalities, their other relationships, and a whole host of factors. However, in general, one partner, frequently the male, and in this case it was stipulated as the male, makes a certain amount of investment (of time, effort, money, something or some combination of somethings) in getting the woman to bed. At some point, it is very, very, obvious that that is exactly what the partner, in this case, the male, is doing. When it becomes obvious, yes, she ought to reveal this problem, and if she allows him to continue investing without revealing it, he really, really, ought to feel cheated.

In the case of the woman being a transwoman, that secret should be revealed very early on, really before any significant investment at all. Like thePrestige said, that would be a case where the woman isn't even in the eligible dating pool, and the guy really needs to know that, quickly.

The medical issue isn't a great analogy to the secret that the target of the man's affections is a transwoman. It's not bad, but it could be better. A better analogy, although still not perfect, would be a situation where the pursued female is hiding the fact that she is, despite all appearances, actually 14 years old. That's the kind of thing that needs to be out there on the table as early as it possibly can be.

ETA: Also, see Emily's Cat's response. It covers some aspects I didn't.
 
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It's not that (statistically) anyone right now thinks that we all have to be "genital blind." It's that there are people who are literally in the process of inevitably talking themselves into.
On point: https://the-orbit.net/alyssa/2020/07/07/the-last-word-on-genital-preference/

(I think EC already shared this one upthread, but it's a good example of where the successor ideology is gradually taking us on this specific issue.)

A lot of people are a lot more compatible with variant genitals than they think they are and leaving “preference” as an easy out means they never feel that giving folks like us a chance is something they could, let alone should, do.

Pretty sure "variant genitals" is a euphemism for sexually functional penises here, but this statement is probably true nonetheless. If Kinsey taught us anything, it's that people are compatible with much more sexual variety than they tend to admit in everyday discourse.

ETA: If indeed "almost everything about most transfeminine penises [is] surprisingly different from cismasculine penises" then even experienced bisexuals might need to learn a new sexual skillset in order to successfully date trans women. This strikes me as a potentially daunting obstacle when hookup apps make it very easy to swipe to the next potential candidate.
 
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On point: https://the-orbit.net/alyssa/2020/07/07/the-last-word-on-genital-preference/

(I think EC already shared this one upthread, but it's a good example of where the successor ideology is gradually taking us on this specific issue.)

The part of that which really makes me scratch my head is at the very beginning:

As a trans lesbian who herself finds one genital configuration more aesthetically and sexually desirable than the other, I come at this topic from a distinct perspective.

This is a transgender identified male who is strongly attracted to females, and strongly desires sexual interaction with female genitalia... who is essentially arguing that females who are attracted to females and female genitalia should be open to accommodating their male genitalia... because... they should be challenging their assumptions about how gender relates to genitalia?
 
Anyone else getting a queasy "converting" or "turning" feeling about this? Like how some toxic elements in the LGB community think about turning straight people gay, or how some toxic straight people think they're gonna turn a gay person straight?

"I know you think you're not into dick, but if you see me as a woman and fall in love with me on that basis, I bet you'll love my dick too, when you find out the truth. So how about I just hide that from you until you're ready?"
 
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Oh good lord. I just got suspended from a different forum because sex-denialism has taken over.

A poster was talking about a genderfluid friend of theirs sometimes wanting to be referred to by a male name, and sometimes by a female name. Then they said that their friend wasn't "out" at work, and they passed as a woman and used the women's facilities.

I asked whether their friend was male or female, because it would be rather easy for a female to pass as a woman, and less easy for a male to do so.

They responded by saying "Umm... sometimes they are male and sometimes they are female, I thought that was obvious".

I responded by saying that's not possible. Sex is fixed during fetal development. What they were talking about was gender identity being fluid, thus sometimes a 'woman' and sometimes a 'man'. But their friend can only be either male or female, and cannot switch between the two sexes depending on how they feel at the time.

And that resulted in a suspension.

This is genuinely some flat earth crap.
 
And that resulted in a suspension.

This is genuinely some flat earth crap.

To be fair, it could just be part of vocabulary issues. With no standard definitions of male/female versus man/woman, they might have some issue.

On the other hand, that gets to one of the points made by JoeMorgue. It's not just a case that one side uses one set of definitions, while the other side uses a different set of definitions. The problem is that some people very prominent in the debate and very active in the discussions refuse to use any definitions at all.

That leads us to a discussion about whether penises and vaginas actually matter in sexual relations, and that is, genuinely, flat earth crap.
 
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