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Does Matter Really Exist?

Iacchus said:
So, do you think this notion of yours worked its way up or, filtered itself down? If it's such a grand and lofty idea, how did it get there?
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It got into my head because I looked around, and thought it up. Or, are you suggesting that good ideas are sneakily stuck into people's head by god? Do you really think so little of ordinary human virute and charity?
 
Iacchus said:
Yes, isn't it something that "I" can conceive of something greater than "I?" Sorry, you're wrong.
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Remarkable.

Tell me, Iacchus, did you even read my whole post? Did you decide what you would respond completely independently of what was written?

What is it like to live completely independently of reality?
 
ImaginalDisc said:
It got into my head because I looked around, and thought it up. Or, are you suggesting that good ideas are sneakily stuck into people's head by god? Do you really think so little of ordinary human virute and charity?
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Really? What is there to think about, if it all just came from the big void? Even if you were to take credit for something, it would still be like trying to extract something from nothing.
 
Iacchus said:
Really? What is there to think about, if it all just came from the big void? Even if you were to take credit for something, it would still be like trying to extract something from nothing.
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You are reducing naturalistic views to a strawman. The universe is not a void, evolution produced nothing "from a void".
 
Iacchus said:
Really? What is there to think about, if it all just came from the big void? Even if you were to take credit for something, it would still be like trying to extract something from nothing.
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Yet again you show your complete ignorance of science and everything else. The theory has not only been explained to you several times, I actually provided a link, which I'm sure you decided asked too much effort for you to read.

The universe did not come from NOTHING. There was never NOTHING. Ergo, NOTHING could have ever come from NOTHING because there was never NOTHING to begin with.
 
Iacchus said:
Are you saying that the entire Universe doesn't extend itself from a single point outward? I believe most of us would constitute this as its center.
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I know the discussion has drifted beyond this, but:

Iacchus, there's a simple analogy you can try at home with a balloon and a marker that demonstrates a centerless expansion.

Draw a bunch of dots on the partially inflated balloon.

Choose a dot to call the "center".

Continue to inflate the balloon, observing that all the other points are moving away from the "center".

Repeat the steps above, but choose a different dot to be the "center", and observe that same effect is true for each dot, proving that neither dot is in fact the center.
 
Sorry, C-Stew, Iacchus has already failed to understand several pages of that example in a recent thread...
 
Mercutio said:
Sorry, C-Stew, Iacchus has already failed to understand several pages of that example in a recent thread...
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Oh well. Too bad. That example triggered a huge insight for me when I was twelve or thirteen.

Iacchus, you might want to ponder it some more in your quiet hours. It's an awe-inspiring realization to grasp the idea of living in a centerless universe. Far more than any metaphysical navel-gazing.
 
chipmunk stew said:
Iacchus, there's a simple analogy you can try at home with a balloon and a marker that demonstrates a centerless expansion.
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Oh, I'm more concerned with the space in the center of the balloon or, are you suggesting such a space doesn't exist? This is after all what we're talking about, the creation of time and space and its ensuing expansion (volume-wise) aren't we?
 
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chipmunk stew said:
Oh well. Too bad. That example triggered a huge insight for me when I was twelve or thirteen.

Iacchus, you might want to ponder it some more in your quiet hours. It's an awe-inspiring realization to grasp the idea of living in a centerless universe. Far more than any metaphysical navel-gazing.
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Yes, it is kind of hard to grasp that we are merely living in "two-dimensions."
 
Iacchus said:
Oh, I'm more concerned with the space in the center of the balloon or, are you suggesting such a space doesn't exist? This is after all what we're talking about, the creation of time and space and its ensuing expansion (volume-wise) aren't we?
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The surface of the balloon is an analogy representing the whole of space-time. For the analogy to work, you consider only the surface of the balloon. Within the bounds of the analogy, there is no space in the center of the balloon.
 
Iacchus said:
All the world's a stage. So what? ... Neither does this tell us who staged it or, what it's trying to teach us. There is nothing about its understanding, however, that does not entail the conscious experience.
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Why should I assume someone staged it? Why should I assume someone or something is trying to teach me (us?) anything? You have yet to provide a reason why one fantasy (god) is any more likely than any other fantasy. Do you have one yet?
 
Iacchus said:
Which of course tells us nothing about who is at home watching the show.
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More than anything else. In the end it is all there is.

Iacchus said:
I am self-aware. All the evidence must be filtered through this first. If we have to look outside of self-awareness to establish what it is, then we can only conclude it's a phenomenon, just like everything else. Meaning, we have totally lost touch with ourselves.
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Ok, it's a phenomenon, now what? There is nothing to conclude from this fact.
 
chipmunk stew said:
The surface of the balloon is an analogy representing the whole of space-time. For the analogy to work, you consider only the surface of the balloon. Within the bounds of the analogy, there is no space in the center of the balloon.
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So, how do you define the four-dimensional space-time reality that we're accustomed to in context with this? I see no room for it in the two-dimensional reality you're proposing, do you?
 
Iacchus said:
So, how do you define the four-dimensional space-time reality that we're accustomed to in context with this? I see no room for it in the two-dimensional reality you're proposing, do you?
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That's why he used it as an analogy.

*sigh*
 
Iacchus said:
I am not a phenomenon to myself ... at least to the part that knows that it knows.
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Let's assume this is true for the sake of argument. So what?

1.) Matrix
2.) Solipsism
3.) Greek gods
4.) God's dream
5.) Reincarnation
6.) Soul created by God
(Not an exhaustive list by most imaginations.)

What conclusion follows from the assumption?
 
Mercutio said:
That's why he used it as an analogy.

*sigh*
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I am willing to accept that there is nothing outside of the balloon, as near as you folks can tell anyway. ;) However, I would very much like to know where the four dimensions of space-time are supposed to exist.
 
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