The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-Opened

[Vixen]

A bow visor is part of the hull. Where do you think the hull stops and the superstructure starts?

The car deck is part of the hull, it is not part of the superstructure.

The different types of what is commonly called the hull can be seen here and is clearly what rests in the water. The bow visor is nowhere near the waterline.

Here's what the JAIC says about (a) the hull and (b) the car deck, which is clearly part of the superstructure.

The hull below the bulkhead deck was subdivided by fifteen watertight transverse bulkheads, equipped with watertight doors as required.

The double-bottom spaces were arranged for fuel oils and other liquids and some were designated as empty tanks. Fuel oil tanks were also placed above the inner bottom.

Deck 0, the tank-deck, contained- from forward - the forepeak, the bow thruster room, an extensive sauna and swimming pool area and - in the aft half of the ship - the generator room, the engine room, the fuel purifier room and other machinery-related spaces. The deck next above, deck l, contained - in the forward half - economy class cabins for 358 passengers. The aft half of the deck contained the engine control room, workshop, main engine room and various utility spaces.

The car deck was one open space, with the exception of a centre casing, located slightly to starboard. Loading ramps were arranged one at the forward end and two at the aft end of the deck. The centre casing contained staircases from the spaces below the car deck, lift trunks and various utility spaces for machinery and catering functions. Five lifts were installed, extending from the passenger spaces below the car deck and from the car deck to deck number 7.

The car deck was on deck one, some two floors up from the hull below the bulkhead. As it was above the waterline it is not considered to be part of the bullkhead hull.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The different types of what is commonly called the hull can be seen here and is clearly what rests in the water. The bow visor is nowhere near the waterline.

Here's what the JAIC says about (a) the hull and (b) the car deck, which is clearly part of the superstructure.



The car deck was on deck one, some two floors up from the hull below the bulkhead. As it was above the waterline it is not considered to be part of the bullkhead hull.

Well, the hull isn't just what is below the 'bulkhead deck'
that is the deck below which the compartments are supposed to be watertight when they are closed down.

You are using your own personal definition of what constitutes a 'hull'

What the diagram showing hull forms is supposed to tell us I have no idea.

 

[phiwum]

Maybe the submarine was hit by the bow of Estonia breaking the bow visor off. then the sub banged along the side of the ship and made the hole before drifting away.


If you go with that idea you can explain the visor and the hole, no need to have the explosives at all.

I like the explosives. I don't see why we should reason them away. They're very dramatic.

 

[phiwum]

Well, the hull isn't just what is below the 'bulkhead deck'
that is the deck below which the compartments are supposed to be watertight when they are closed down.

You are using your own personal definition of what constitutes a 'hull'

What the diagram showing hull forms is supposed to tell us I have no idea.

The hull forms diagram shows the shape below the waterline, ergo the hull is the part of the boat below the waterline. Duh.

I mean, no, that's not how I've ever heard it used. On my boat, I had severe damage one year (my fault) to the joint holding the deck to the hull. Now, I'm not good with terminology, so I don't recall the name of the joint, but it's clear that the freeboard is part of the hull, given how it was described by my repair shop and the insurance folks.

I mean, we could look it up, but Vixen already has I'll bet, and she's refrained from citing the dictionary because she can't figure out how to spin it. Hence, she decides that the phrase "the hull below the bulkhead deck" is synonymous with "the hull".

 

[JayUtah]

What the diagram showing hull forms is supposed to tell us I have no idea.

It's ostensibly from https://www.boatsafe.com/types-boat-hulls/ which pays special attention to the hydrodynamics of different boat hulls (not ship hulls). The only part of a ship's or boat's hull that appeals to hydrodynamicists is the part below the waterline. That doesn't mean that's the only part of the hull that exists. It's a nice diagram to show what certain people care about. Other people such as shipwrights and boatbuilders care about different things. They know what a hull is, and it definitely extends above the waterline.

On my boat, I had severe damage one year (my fault) to the joint holding the deck to the hull. Now, I'm not good with terminology, so I don't recall the name of the joint...

The sheer strake, possibly.

...but it's clear that the freeboard is part of the hull, given how it was described by my repair shop and the insurance folks.

Yes, freeboard is one of the classic measurements of a hull. And under Vixen's private definition it doesn't even exist.

 

[Kid Eager]

The different types of what is commonly called the hull can be seen here and is clearly what rests in the water. The bow visor is nowhere near the waterline.

Here's what the JAIC says about (a) the hull and (b) the car deck, which is clearly part of the superstructure.



The car deck was on deck one, some two floors up from the hull below the bulkhead. As it was above the waterline it is not considered to be part of the bullkhead hull.

There you go again - coining imaginary terms to further the game. Lame. There hull is the hull is the hull. You can point to parts of the hull

 

[phiwum]

The different types of what is commonly called the hull can be seen here and is clearly what rests in the water. The bow visor is nowhere near the waterline.

Here's what the JAIC says about (a) the hull and (b) the car deck, which is clearly part of the superstructure.



The car deck was on deck one, some two floors up from the hull below the bulkhead. As it was above the waterline it is not considered to be part of the bullkhead hull.

Even a sailboat hobbyist knows that the hull extends above the waterline. Indeed, the shape of the hull above the (resting) waterline matters a lot in sailboat performance, since a sailboat heels. I know that much about hulls, though I don't know enough too look at a hull and see how it influences performance.

You've fixated on a passage focusing on the the "hull below the bulkhead deck" as if that's a common meaning for "hull". You've coined "bulkhead hull" and pretend it's a common term, often simply called "hull". Oh, I suppose it's possible that "bulkhead hull" is discussed in some areas, I wouldn't know, but I strongly suspect you wouldn't know either, since until today you seemed to be laboring under the misapprehension that the hull ends at the waterline and you still pretend that's the common meaning.

(A Google search suggests "bulkhead hull" is a term used nowhere, by the way.)

 

[Andy_Ross]

As I noted earlier in the day, on some diagrams of the ship online the car decks are labelled as 'överbyggnad'.
This is being translated from Swedish as 'superstructure'.

 

[Axxman300]

Heh. The bow ramp was not actually open, though.

The bow ramp WAS open.

When the hood, what you guys are calling the visor, was torn off the bow ramp, which was snug in place up under the hood, was ripped open. You ignore this key fact. The water squirting over the ramp came from the open hood flapping in the waves. When the hood fell off it ripped the ramp open allowing the water to flood into the car deck. That's why it flipped onto its side so fast.

Again, I'm not an expert but it might explain why the ramp has fallen off the ship entirely now. That's a lot of force taken by its bolts and hinges, there had to be damage there too.

 

[Dabop]

I am afraid that it is a law of physics that a ship designed to float will turn upside down if it capsizes. This is what the Herald of Fee Enterprise would have done had the accident happened at open sea. You can stamp your foot as much as you like. The JAIC didn't seem to question this simple fact as to why the Estonia sank so incredibly quickly, rather than float turtle for hours or days, like the MS Jan Heweliusz

Independent

Total nonsense- I have a friend whole lost his trailersailor (a small 22ft 'motor sailing boat' ie has both a motor and sails) which capsized (ALWAYS have a manual backup to electric winches people!!!) due to a seized winchline which left him oversailed...
The boat capsized 90 degrees, with the mast lying flat along the water, then proceeded to sink (once the sails are full of water, she isn't coming back...)

It most certainly capsized, but at no time did it 'turn turtle' in fact even after capsizing, it was 'trying' to lift the sails back upright (weight of the keel) but simply too much weight 'up high' ie in the sails, driving the hull deeper into the water...
Sadly had he not replaced the lines only the previous year- he probably could have saved it with a simple knife, which he had on his belt- but he had gone the steel cable route because they 'last longer' and there was no way of cutting them

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Hammond sinks a boat, no hull damage. Okay, it's the Grand Tour & not a real scientific demonstration with Tupperware.........

 

[Mojo]

.The bow visor was nowhere near the waterline.

It’s a good thing the sea never has waves on it.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Total nonsense- I have a friend whole lost his trailersailor (a small 22ft 'motor sailing boat' ie has both a motor and sails) which capsized (ALWAYS have a manual backup to electric winches people!!!) due to a seized winchline which left him oversailed...
The boat capsized 90 degrees, with the mast lying flat along the water, then proceeded to sink (once the sails are full of water, she isn't coming back...)

It most certainly capsized, but at no time did it 'turn turtle' in fact even after capsizing, it was 'trying' to lift the sails back upright (weight of the keel) but simply too much weight 'up high' ie in the sails, driving the hull deeper into the water...
Sadly had he not replaced the lines only the previous year- he probably could have saved it with a simple knife, which he had on his belt- but he had gone the steel cable route because they 'last longer' and there was no way of cutting them

Then your friend didn't think it through.

Head, to wind, 'back' the foresail and helm over the opposite way to heave to while he cleared the problem.
He should have had wire cutters in the cockpit already in case he needed to cut the shrouds in case of a broken mast.
Also if a sailing boat capsizes and it is any bigger than a dinghy the mast has to be cut away to get it back upright.
I don't know anyone that would use steel for a halliard and why would he leave it on a winch and not cleat it properly once the sail was raised?

 

[Vixen]

The hull forms diagram shows the shape below the waterline, ergo the hull is the part of the boat below the waterline. Duh.

I mean, no, that's not how I've ever heard it used. On my boat, I had severe damage one year (my fault) to the joint holding the deck to the hull. Now, I'm not good with terminology, so I don't recall the name of the joint, but it's clear that the freeboard is part of the hull, given how it was described by my repair shop and the insurance folks.

I mean, we could look it up, but Vixen already has I'll bet, and she's refrained from citing the dictionary because she can't figure out how to spin it. Hence, she decides that the phrase "the hull below the bulkhead deck" is synonymous with "the hull".

Just trying to ascertain the part of the ship that needs to be damaged for the boat to sink completely within 35 minutes.

 

[Vixen]

The bow ramp WAS open.

When the hood, what you guys are calling the visor, was torn off the bow ramp, which was snug in place up under the hood, was ripped open. You ignore this key fact. The water squirting over the ramp came from the open hood flapping in the waves. When the hood fell off it ripped the ramp open allowing the water to flood into the car deck. That's why it flipped onto its side so fast.

Again, I'm not an expert but it might explain why the ramp has fallen off the ship entirely now. That's a lot of force taken by its bolts and hinges, there had to be damage there too.

Then how come these two guys claim to have climbed down the car ramp? In addition, the JAIC says the car ramp was shut but deformed one metre at the top (I guess they had to get the water into the car deck somehow to fit the foregone conclusion).


If the car ramp was tied in place by a hawser then the bow visor could not pull it away.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Just trying to ascertain the part of the ship that needs to be damaged for the boat to sink completely within 35 minutes.

It just has to fill up with enough water to lose buoyancy, it doesn't need to be damaged below the waterline.
If enough water is high in the ship and the ship rolls it will capsize, then the hull will fill with water and it will sink.
It is rare for a ship to turn completely over.

 

[phiwum]

Just trying to ascertain the part of the ship that needs to be damaged for the boat to sink completely within 35 minutes.

Okay, let's set aside your issues with terminology.

Look, you often refer to authorities in order to support these various theories. Any of these authorities ever say something like "A ship will always turn turtle if it takes on water unless the source is below the waterline"?

I mean, a lot of folks know about boats and some percentage of the really knowledgeable ones have heard about Archimedes. Wouldn't you find it odd that such a fundamental and important fact about boat disasters is your own private discovery?

 

[Steve]

Okay, let's set aside your issues with terminology.

Look, you often refer to authorities in order to support these various theories. Any of these authorities ever say something like "A ship will always turn turtle if it takes on water unless the source is below the waterline"?

I mean, a lot of folks know about boats and some percentage of the really knowledgeable ones have heard about Archimedes. Wouldn't you find it odd that such a fundamental and important fact about boat disasters is your own private discovery?

This entire thread is about things that Vixen alone has discovered. Why would this be any odder than the rest?

 

[phiwum]

Then your friend didn't think it through.

Head, to wind, 'back' the foresail and helm over the opposite way to heave to while he cleared the problem.
He should have had wire cutters in the cockpit already in case he needed to cut the shrouds in case of a broken mast.
Also if a sailing boat capsizes and it is any bigger than a dinghy the mast has to be cut away to get it back upright.
I don't know anyone that would use steel for a halliard and why would he leave it on a winch and not cleat it properly once the sail was raised?

You know, I never have thought about the need to cut a stay or shroud. My boat is simple in that respect -- it's a catboat with a forestay and no shrouds or backstay, so probably the wire cutters are less essential, but I suppose I ought to have a good pair on board nonetheless.

I'm surprised that a trailer sailer has need of electric winches. My boat's the same length, but heavier and with a larger sail area than a trailer boat (it's 22' long but 10' wide, so large for a 22 footer), but I have no winches of any sort. They're just not common on a catboat. Of course, Dabop's friend may have very different sailing conditions than I encounter.

 

[Dabop]

He really wasn't very good at sailing it lol- and only took it out a few times a year...
Probably the major reason he got into trouble, marginal conditions and inexperience are going to bite you every time...

It never had winches from the factory, he had added an autopilot (well paid to have it installed) and that got him into 'sailing by remote' so added the electric winches so he didn't have to leave the cockpit- they actually did have a removable handle, but that was below in the cabin, so when the winch jammed, it took only seconds for it to be on its side and no time to go below and search for it...
(steel sail cables aren't unrare, well not in Oz) and with the electric winch setup (also fairly common) you rely on the winch brakes and gearing to hold the sail in place, no 'tying off'- just flip the switches up or down...

Had it actually followed 'Vixen's law of boating' it would have turned turtle and being in a river probably would have never sunk at all (I actually had to be towed almost at the same exact spot as a teenager- turned a hobiecat over and got the mast stuck in the mud lol- couldn't right it or even move, took a trawler to pull the mast out- don't be a smartarse and try sailing a 'cat on one hull in gusty conditions lol)