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[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

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One of the problems with how the subject is debated is that trans people are often discussed as if they were one monolithic group. And that simply isn't the case. For example, a fully medically transitioned transwoman is very different than a transwoman who has had no medical intervention at all. A number of posters want to conflate them, but that is a mistake. The refusal to acknowledge the difference acts as a form of motte and bailey argument. That's why so many of the "pro" trans people refuse to answer how one even determines what counts as valid trans status. Doing so require acknowledging such differences exist, and they can matter.

No, the trans community is not monolithic. From what I've seen, even on the issues we discuss here, there is a wide range of opinions among trans people. Blaire White is the obvious example. Rose of Dawn is another. Kat Blaque also has some pretty nuanced positions.

Here's Kat Blaque talking about Wi Spa. She's pretty rational, and its worth a watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Bpy-7meEd4

And just for fun, here's a Blaire White link where she explains that she doesn't hate non-binary people: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CUf2vIz2Y4
At 6:19 she talks about early in her transition going to a trans-support group and being told that the fact that she wanted to transition was inherently transphobic. At 5:30 she explains that she actually finds it upsetting to be asked her pronouns. It's also a good watch as she covers a wide range of topics.
 
Rolfe's distinction between autogynephiliacs and transsexuals comes to mind.

Yeah...

but...

Rolfe wasn't really recognizing differences in types of trans people. Quite the opposite. She pretty much put it down to sexual gratification: hetero-sexual men with AGP or homosexual men who wanted to be female to get men.

A lot of the problem with her position is that it ignores some pretty glaring flaws in both the study's methodology and the underlying logic.
 
Honestly I'd have great respect for ST's position if he stated outright that he believes women's concerns are necessarily subordinate to trans inclusion. If he declared openly that this is how he believes it needs to be, for social justice to be realized.

If he articulated his reasoning for these beliefs, I'd have even more respect.

The fact that he does neither, but resorts to vilification and dodges when pressed on these points, tells me there's nothing respectable in his position.

I've been open and honest about what I believe and why. I ask only the same from ST.

I don't think either is subordinate to another. It's a strange way to frame humans rights as one having to subordinate to another.

What's is very telling about these situations is the utter lack of curiosity by the trans exclusionists to explore or even consider any other option but exclusion.

Sure, they'll cite the safety and concerns of women, but even when solutions are offered that could meet those concerns, they fall back to their insistence on trans exclusion.

It becomes clear that exclusion is not a means to an end for women's safety, as they claim, but the goal in itself. They don't want any solution where the gender identity of trans people is recognized.
 
This is consistent with the definitions that I have consistently used throughout this thread.

Okay, we're making progress.


I don't know why you suddenly think "we're making progress" when I've stated my opinion on this several times already in this thread(s).



Next question: Is gender identity more valid than sex, less valid than sex, equally as valid as sex, or a mix thereof depending on situation?


That's a false equivalence
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<SNIP> Rule 12
.

And my answer to it is as follows: 1) both are valid; 2) both are equally valid; 3) each is applicable in different situations and contexts.


Shall I perhaps aim some direct questions at you for an answer next time round?
 
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No, but this is a dodge. I still contend that Agatha is correct, and that forcible penetration by an object is traumatic, but is less traumatic in general but not always than forcible penetration by a penis. Part of that generally but not always reduced trauma is because there is not a risk of pregnancy or disease from an object. That object isn't squirting semen into them.

Step away from your ideological basis here, and give it some real consideration, please.

Would you rather that a predatory male stuck a carrot up your anus, or that a predatory male pinned you down and stuck their penis into your anus until they ejaculated into you?

Would you rather that a predatory female forced you to put your fingers into their vagina, or that a predatory female forced you to put your penis into their vagina?

Which is more of a violation? And no - you cannot say "they're equal". You have to pick one. These are forced choice questions.


This is getting ridiculous. Of course ST (or anyone, for that matter) doesn't "have to pick one". That's bordering on outrageous, frankly.

(As a hint: the circumstances of the sex attack in each instance would be a significant factor in the experienced trauma.)

And as for "step away from your ideological basis here", I might observe that this instruction is both condescending and more than a little ironic.
 
Quite frankly, this makes it pretty apparent that you have never actually been sexually assaulted or raped.

But please, do continue to tell females all about what females are like, and how we should feel, and what is most important or most violating to us. We, being mere females, clearly can't figure that out for ourselves. :rolleyes:


Oh, here we go again.

I suppose you'd also be in favour of female rape victims being in charge of the framing of female-rape legislation, female-rape court adjudication, and female-rape sentencing. After all, just how many of those legislature politicians, courtroom juries, or sentencing judges have actually been sexually assaulted or raped? Quite clearly (in your world), they're not even qualified to have an opinion on the matter - let alone take important decisions related to the matter.

My word.
 
Honestly I'd have great respect for ST's position if he stated outright that he believes women's concerns are necessarily subordinate to trans inclusion. If he declared openly that this is how he believes it needs to be, for social justice to be realized.


I can't speak for ST, but I can speak for myself on this matter. You (and others in this thread) are constantly bringing up this patently false dichotomy. You're effectively claiming that if a person is in favour of trans-rights, then that person must, consciously or unconsciously, believe that (cis)women's rights are relatively unimportant.

It doesn't seem to occur to you or many others that it's entirely possible/feasible to be essentially equally concerned with both groups' rights.

The thing is: as we sit here in 2021, the rights of transgender people are objectively significantly less than the rights of ciswomen (though thankfully, progressive scientists, legislatures and courts are increasingly closing that gap in many liberal democracies).

It doesn't stand to reason that an improvement in transgender rights necessarily implies (or entails) a commensurate deterioration in ciswomen's rights. As I've indicated in the matter of transwomen in women's prisons, for example, the data from England&Wales indicate clearly that ciswoman prisoners actually have far, far more to fear from other ciswoman prisoners than from transwoman prisoners. It's also a highly germane point that transwoman prisoners are very carefully vetted before being allowed to be placed in women's prisons, and carefully monitored once they're there - and I'd suspect that this sort of risk-reduction (to cis-woman prisoners) strategy will only improve much further, as prison officials learn and understand more and more about the most effective strategies.

And just as in that prisons example, it's very likely that a justified improvement in transwomen's rights in other areas will similarly involve increasingly effective means of risk-mitigation wrt ciswomen (maybe to the point of statistical elimination). But - importantly - if it transpires that the improvement in transwomen's rights in any given area does lead to a deterioration in ciswomen's rights (including, obviously, increased real risk to ciswomen's safety and wellbeing), and if it proves impossible to mitigate that risk properly, well.... then - and only then - should decisions be made to consider rolling back transwomen's rights in that area.

I suspect ST might agree with some or all of what I've written here, but obviously I'll leave it to him to provide his own response (if he so chooses).
 
Not so much anymore! Scotland, Canada, and several US States now allow some male people to be housed in female prisons, as long as they know the special password.
You'll have to explain, for each and every prison separately, why you think this is a problem. Prison conditions vary widely, and you have to consider those conditions.

Did you know that the Netherlands has recently housed ordinary non-transgender males in a women's prison?

Men hit harder, for the most part.
Maybe stop those men from hitting each other?

(Even if sexual assault wasn't a thing, we'd still have the problem of ordinary assault in the institutions set aside to house those who readily resort to violence.)
If the institutions set aside to house those who readily resort to violence, does not stop those from resorting to violence, you have a systemic failure of those institutions.
 
I don't think either is subordinate to another. It's a strange way to frame humans rights as one having to subordinate to another.

And yet you do it anyways. In fact, it’s unavoidable. When different rights conflict, and they cannot be simultaneously satisfies, one must be subordinated to another. The only question is which one to subordinate under what conditions. You may not like to frame it that way, but that is in point of fact the way it is, and again, you aren’t even avoiding doing it yourself.

What's is very telling about these situations is the utter lack of curiosity by the trans exclusionists to explore or even consider any other option but exclusion.

This is a straw man.
 
Yeah...

but...

Rolfe wasn't really recognizing differences in types of trans people. Quite the opposite. She pretty much put it down to sexual gratification: hetero-sexual men with AGP or homosexual men who wanted to be female to get men.

A lot of the problem with her position is that it ignores some pretty glaring flaws in both the study's methodology and the underlying logic.

Thank you. I don't subscribe to the full extremity of Rolfe's viewpoint. She has, however, raised some considerations I hadn't thought of before.
 
If the institutions set aside to house those who readily resort to violence, does not stop those from resorting to violence, you have a systemic failure of those institutions.

You cannot stop that from ever happening unless you place everyone in isolation, which is even worse for prisoners. No doubt improvements can be made, but this idea of zero violence for violent populations is simply delusional.
 
You cannot stop that from ever happening unless you place everyone in isolation, which is even worse for prisoners.
It is entirely possible to house individual prisoners in individual cells without subjecting them to the conditions in American isolation cells.

No doubt improvements can be made, but this idea of zero violence for violent populations is simply delusional.
It can be reduced to near zero.
 
I don't think either is subordinate to another. It's a strange way to frame humans rights as one having to subordinate to another.

What's is very telling about these situations is the utter lack of curiosity by the trans exclusionists to explore or even consider any other option but exclusion.

You seem to find lots of things that other people do interesting or telling, but when you describe what that is, you are so often wrong. This is no exception.

As for subordination of rights, that word "rights" is abused all over the place. I'm not sure how to apply "rights" to amateur sports, or even being seen naked in a locker room. What I am absolutely certain of is that there is no way that everyone can get what they want, so someone has to decide who is going to win. There's no way around it.

Alana Smith wants the medal for.being the fastest girl in Connecticut. Terry Miller wants the same thing. There is only one medal. They can't both win. Pick one. Explain your reasoning and admit to it.

I did. Terry, my vote is that you lose. I am insufficiently bothered about your identity issues. I find them not compelling compared to the desire to encourage athleticism among biological females. If I get to decide, Alana is the winner. I'm not sure there is a "right" involved at all, but in terms of interests, I think Terry's are subordinate to Alana's. Not everyone agrees.

I don't see why that's so hard to admit. I think the discussions go around in circles so much because people won't admit to their own positions, or at the very least won't admit to their implications, and spend lots of time chasing a straw man version of the positions of people who disagree with them.
 
It is entirely possible to house individual prisoners in individual cells without subjecting them to the conditions in American isolation cells.

That would likely reduce violence. But it wouldn't come close to eliminating it. Prisoners don't spend all their time in their cell. If they do, then those cells are isolation cells. And when they are out of their cells, in contact with other prisoners, the potential for violence cannot be eliminated. That's impossible absent isolation.

It can be reduced to near zero.

No, it cannot.
 
That would likely reduce violence. But it wouldn't come close to eliminating it. Prisoners don't spend all their time in their cell. If they do, then those cells are isolation cells. And when they are out of their cells, in contact with other prisoners, the potential for violence cannot be eliminated. That's impossible absent isolation.



No, it cannot.

It sounds to me, though, that Dutch prisons have less violence than American prisons, so we should look to see what the Dutch are doing differently. If we did, maybe the trans issues would go away.

Eta:. Unfortunately, that doesn't actually solve the question of where to put transwoman prisoners. The problem is made more complicated by the shameful conditions in some nations' prisons, but that still leaves the question about where to put a specific criminal. As with almost every other issue that comes up in this thread, I think the issue begins with biology, and that's what should drive the solution. That means my defaultbposition is that biological males go to men's prisons.
 
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Rolfe's distinction between autogynephiliacs and transsexuals comes to mind.

That's a distinction related to the driving impetus for gender dysphoria, not necessarily different degrees of transition (if any). I would suggest that the varying degrees of desired (as opposed to attainable) transition are mostly found among AGP males.

That said, I think the HSTS/AGP male and the HSTS female categorization has a hole in it. It think it holds for "classical" gender dysphoria, but I also think that a very large number of people identifying as transgender currently don't have "classical" dysphoria. That is, they have no particular disconnect with their bodies that cause stress and anxiety about their bodies.

A very large number of the increases in transgender identified people over the last decade seem to be more about "social dysphoria". They do not like how other people perceive them, and they do not like the assumptions about behavior and roles that are made based on that perception. For all intents and purposes, they reject social constructs of gender by permanently altering themselves to conform to the opposing construct. I simply don't think that's effective.

So now we have three essential categories of transgender people:

  • Those driven by a sincere disconnect with their sexed-body, and who very deeply desire to be attractive to their own sex as the opposite sex - Homosexual Transsexuals, or HSTS.
  • Those who have an erotic target location error focused on themselves but who are otherwise heterosexual - this would be Autogynephilia in males, but I don't know the term in females, but both would be a paraphilia. That doesn't make them untrue or invalid, but it does present a complicating factor when it comes to conflicts between identity and sex with respect to rights, safety, and dignity.
  • Those who are rejecting social stereotypes of their own sex.

Blair White and Buck Angel both fall into the category of being HSTS. Both, additionally, reject the mantra of Transwomen are Women and Transmen are Men. Both accept their biological sex, but live as = and make solid attempts to pass as - the opposite sex.

Debbie Hayton falls into the category of AGP. They also reject the TWAW/TMAM dogma. Hayton accepts their biological sex, and also accepts that their underlying cause of dysphoria is a paraphilia. They also oppose self-declaration as the litmus test, and further recognize that the desires of AGP males can in many cases conflict directly with the rights and safety of females.

Both of my sibling's children fall into the third category. My siblings oldest male child showed no signs of dysphoria when they were younger, no significant elements of gender nonconformity, but did have some elements of autism spectrum disorder, and had a very slow development toward cognitive sexual maturity (despite normal progression of physical maturity). At age 20, they were mugged and beaten up on their walk home after work. That event left them feeling frightened and vulnerable. And somewhere along the way, that vulnerability and victimization caused them to feel that they must be a 'woman' because 'women' are vulnerable.

My sibling's youngest female child showed no signs of dysphoria as a youth, no particular nonconformity. They were athletic, engaging, friendly, and independent. They physically developed at a fairly young age, about 12, and still had no feelings of dysphoria. At 14, their parents' marriage disintegrated and things got bad, and they developed a considerable anxiety disorder. At 16 they were sexually assaulted by a person they had considered a close friend. Now, at 17, they want regularly wear a breast binder and want to start testosterone. In their own words, they have no problems with their body, are quite comfortable with it as a sexed body... but they don't like the attention that gets paid to it, especially their breasts. They don't want to be looked at, ogled, and treated like a female. They want to get treated like a male.

Those variances, and the different behavioral patterns that go with them, are what give me pause.

The problem is not the existence of transgender people. The problem isn't that transgender people might access female-only spaces.

The problem is almost entirely self-declaration.

It isn't the existence of transgender people that has caused concern. Transgender people who were clinically diagnosed, treated, and went through the process of changing their legal status alongside counseling have existed for a long time. And while they did sometimes face discrimination from some people, they've actually been fairly well accepted by the opposite sex. They've used our bathrooms and our changing rooms; they've been accepted into our rape and domestic violence shelters; they've been placed in our prisons. They've lived alongside us with largely no incident.

That gatekeeping served to ensure that the patient was not making a decision they would regret, was not harming themselves physically or mentally, and that they didn't present a risk to other people. That gatekeeping made sure that underlying factors - like stress, anxiety, and trauma experienced by my sibling's children - were treated first, to make sure the desire to transition wasn't a misdirection.

Without gatekeeping, with self-declaration as the sole arbiter, we have seen problems arise that were almost unheard of previously. It's self-declaration that allowed Yaniv to harass female waxing providers, behave inappropriately toward children, and to engage in misbehavior. It's self-declaration that allowed Karen White to be placed in a female estate and rape females imprisoned there.

The problem isn't transgender people, and it really never has been - not through all six installments of this discussion.

The problem is self-declaration, and the ideological narrative leveraged to push that policy.
 
As I've indicated in the matter of transwomen in women's prisons, for example, the data from England&Wales indicate clearly that ciswoman prisoners actually have far, far more to fear from other ciswoman prisoners than from transwoman prisoners.

For clarity, the data IIRC shows that they are far more at risk from each individual transwomen prisoner, than each individual ciswomen prisoner (risk averaged across those populations).

This means that adding a transwomen prisoner to the population increases the risk.

It's also a highly germane point that transwoman prisoners are very carefully vetted before being allowed to be placed in women's prisons, and carefully monitored once they're there - .

My comment above remains true, even when the transwomen prisoners have been carefully selected.

and I'd suspect that this sort of risk-reduction (to cis-woman prisoners) strategy will only improve much further, as prison officials learn and understand more and more about the most effective strategies

Based on the data, the most effective strategy to reduce risk for ciswomen prisoners is not to transfer in any transwomen prisoners.
 
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