• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-Opened

Status
Not open for further replies.
More to the (well, my) point, do you think this is sufficient to conclude that the witnesses reported seeing a camera flash?

Because Vixen keeps saying that the survivors reported explosions.

Ladies and gentlemen <clink, clink, clink> may I have your attention. You have all just witnessed a terrible accident and the police are going to be asking for your eye witness accounts. Can I just say that I have consulted with a camera expert and he says the flashes of light you may or may not have seen are consistent with that of a camera, so no silly ideas about describing it in any other way. And just so you know, you heard no explosions nor felt any collisions. That was just a fault in the bow visor bolts, so please keep your witness statements to the point, because the experts know best.
 
The other day I dropped a saucepan on our stone kitchen floor. I'd estimate it's weight at about 1/100,00th the weight of the house.

MrsB came downstairs and asked what the hell that noise was.

Vixen, are you making silly arguments for the fun of it? I ask because your clattering bus analogy is so stupid that it can only be meant comically, as far as I can see.

Did it shake the whole house? No. Because your stone floor just made it sound ultra loud.

I was staying in Wales a few years ago when suddenly I felt a lurch. The whole place shifted and I wondered if a lorry had crashed into the building. It turned out part of Wales had experienced a small earth tremor at that very moment. That is what people mean when they say something felt like a collision. It may not have been a collision but it will have been something equivalent to cause that sensation.
 
How is that the same? A ship's hull is not the same as a row of houses or even a row of buses.
It is a single monolithic thing.

I can tell you from personal experience that a 55 ton weight striking a ship will be heard and felt through the ship.
I could feel and hear an anchor slamming in to the Hawse Pipe of a Frigate.

55 tons is a massive weight. it is the same as an Abrams Tank!

I’m right now trying to think of anything that would be 55 tons on a ship and striking the ship whilst under way. Never experienced something that massive, but based upon experience with impact of lesser mass, it would be bad and loud.
 
Did it shake the whole house? No. Because your stone floor just made it sound ultra loud.

You have missed the point entirely. A line of buses won't react in the same way as a single structure of equivalent weight will.
 
Ladies and gentlemen <clink, clink, clink> may I have your attention. You have all just witnessed a terrible accident and the police are going to be asking for your eye witness accounts. Can I just say that I have consulted with a camera expert and he says the flashes of light you may or may not have seen are consistent with that of a camera, so no silly ideas about describing it in any other way. And just so you know, you heard no explosions nor felt any collisions. That was just a fault in the bow visor bolts, so please keep your witness statements to the point, because the experts know best.

Vixen’s turn to be interviewed:
“I was minding my own business when a thermobaric device was detonated, causing a bright flash and the resulting shock wave propelled one car into the other.”
Q: How did you know it was a thermobaric device?
A: The bright flash
Q: Did you see the device before detonating?
A: No, it was coated in VantaBlack coating
Q: How do you know that?
A: It’s obvious given that the device wasn’t visible.
Q: If it was a thermobaric device there would have been a crater?
A: it was an air burst
Q: You know what an air burst thermobaric detonation looks like?
A: Not specifically, but with the absence of a crater it’s the only plausible scenario.
Q: How do you explain that the incident site is entirely consistent with a t-bone collision involving two cars?
A: You’re just making assumptions. You didn’t even witness it…
 
Sure,

'A sudden loud, sharp noise.
‘the door slammed with a bang’

Might make you jump, especially if you weren't expecting anyone and it turns out to be the wind. However, you would be able to describe it as a door slamming shut.

One bang, okay, shrug. Another bang. Okaaaay and then another enormous BOM. Oh wait the clock just struck twelve. What the... way-hey-hay...now you are suddenly slung forward against a wall and the ship lurches violently to one side without righting itself.

That is not a door slamming shut in the wind.


Come off it.

I never once suggested it was a door slamming in the wind. You'd have to have the reading comprehension of an unusually dull garden slug to get that from my posts.

There were loud noises. They were noteworthy and hence not expected in normal service.

This does not mean they were explosions, much less that the witnesses reported them as explosions.

You could have just unconsciously understood explosions when you read "bangs" at one point. At this point, any claims that explosions were reported by several witnesses cross over into blatant lies.

Unless, of course, you have any actual evidence that they genuinely reported hearing explosions, rather than the more ambiguous "bangs".
 
Go for it. 20nm can be done pootling around in a few hours messing around.

Didn't win the quiz by the way.

Sure, it's an easy sail. I've covered longer distances in a day sail. I just had various issues prevent it the past two years (the lightning strike being a doozy).
 
The bow visor in weight was 327th that of the entire ship. Imagine a row of 327 buses and the roof of one of them has come off and is clattering against the frame. Do you really think those other 300 odd buses will shake and vibrate? Or that passengers in the end buses would even be aware of it?





.

What a silly analogy.

A door weighs much less than a house, yet a heavily slammed door produces a noise heard throughout the house and can shake the house.
 
Last edited:
Ladies and gentlemen <clink, clink, clink> may I have your attention. You have all just witnessed a terrible accident and the police are going to be asking for your eye witness accounts. Can I just say that I have consulted with a camera expert and he says the flashes of light you may or may not have seen are consistent with that of a camera, so no silly ideas about describing it in any other way. And just so you know, you heard no explosions nor felt any collisions. That was just a fault in the bow visor bolts, so please keep your witness statements to the point, because the experts know best.

We're not talking about people who reported explosions, Vixen. We're talking about people who reported bangs. You've got your analogy the wrong way 'round.

Witness: I heard a bang.
Vixen: He reported hearing an explosion.
Sane people: No, he said he heard a bang.
Vixen: Don't deny his report! He heard an explosion, you survivor-hater, you!

That's what's going on and you bloody well know it. This could all be settled if you could find someone who reported hearing an explosion (again, I'll note one person said he heard something like an explosion, but only one).

[Usual caveat: We are at least two steps removed from the actual testimony. There was a translation and a summarization required for our source. It totally could be the case that something more suggestive of an explosion was reported initially, but we have no evidence of that so far.]
 
Last edited:
Why do you think mass is the only determining factor?



Why would you think that a row of busses is in any way mechanically equivalent to a ship?

It's not mass that she thinks is the determining factor, it's relative mass. It's an absolutely bizarre notion. She believes a 55 ton piece of a ship breaking loose would not make a significant sound because it is only 1/327th of the ship.

I can only imagine how little sound a 10 lb sledgehammer would make
It depends where they were in the ship. Those on the lowest deck can hear every shift and clunk of the engine and even the waves. For example, Carl Ovberg - (- at about 22.30 hours (Swedish time) down to the cabin and to bed;
- he woke up suddenly from the strong noise of rushing water which he could hear from both sides, but loudest from starboard side; these noises alarmed him;
- in addition he heard quite strong metallic banging noises which definitely had not been there before; he sat up in bed and put his feet on the floor, since the bed was athwartships he was facing the door looking aft;
- he lit a cigarette and listened intently to the strange and frightening noise scenario;
- after a little while he suddenly heard the starting up noise of an hydraulic pump or pumps followed by the clicking of valves and then the typical noise created by an hydraulic system under load;
- simultaneously he heard the banging of sledge hammers;
- the noises came probably from forward;
- the hydraulic under load noise faded away and came back again whilst the sledge-hammer banging noise more or less continued. Both the hydraulic noise and the sledge-hammer banging noise continued for ca. 10-15 minutes whilst the other banging noises, then heard already for some 20-25 minutes, also continued;
- the hydraulic noise and the sledge-hammer noise stopped with a short, sharp metallic crash which gave him the impression that something heavy, metallic had broken;
- after a 'silence' of 30-40 seconds the next really extreme crash followed in connection with an abrupt stopping of the ferry which was so 'sudden' that he was thrown against the front wall of his bed
) -
Those on the upper deck, such as Paul Barney - (woke up from a bang/shock and thought there had been a collision;
then he heard cracking and scraping noises and something was gliding along the vessel's hull side
) - and Sara Hedrenius (=woke up from two heavy bangs which made the vessel shake (she thought they had hit a rock), vessel moved up and down) - experience it as a collision, with each saying they were woken up by the push, jolt, or noise.


If someone was asleep or falling asleep at the time (12:00/1:00 Swedish/Estonian Time) then their experience will be different from someone already wide awake.

Something like 38 people described either bangs, explosions, heavy noises and or collisions, crashes, a force strong enough to throw their entire body out of bed or off their feet. Thirty-eight people out of seventy-nine is an awfully large amount - 48% - nearly half of all of them.
 
Last edited:
No, not really, as it was already deemed that Werft had no liability as the thing had been designed before the regulations came into effect. Werft were challenging the JAIC as a matter of principle. It already had on its side the poor record of maintenance. By all accounts, the car ramp door was often simply tied up with a hawser on the front of deck capstan and it was known to be leaky. However, the JAIC said it was purely the design of the visor bolts that were at fault, Since it had been designed way back in 1980 for trips between Finland and Sweden, I hardly think Werft wouldn't have had a strong case that 12 hours of open sea wasn't what the ferry was designed for. Their expert claims assessor, Werner Hummel, pursued a defence as a matter of ethics and principle.


I'm afraid you're going to have to provide reliable evidence for your claim that the JAIC report effectively indemnified the shipyard* against any and all civil lawsuits in respect of substandard design and/or substandard construction. Because I can't find anything to support your claim (though of course I'm not (at this stage...) accusing you of over-embellishing or simply making it up).


* NB: the name of the shipyard that built the Estonia was/is Meyer Werft. Not simply "Werft"
 
At my local church, whenever a parishioner dies and is about to be brought to the chapel of rest awaiting the funeral, the church bells ring for a full eight minutes and it is of such a high volume you can hear it a kilometre away and heaven help your ears if you are next to it. However, although at the top of the decibel range, there is no way anyone would describe it as a 'bang'.


Really? Really?! You're actually serious about comparing a tuned church bell - whose shape and metal (usually bronze, not steel) has been honed and refined over centuries with the specific & sole aim of producing a sonorous ringing tone - with a ship that's made out of steel and whose design is actually predicated on not producing a tuned note when struck??

The wonders - and the abject scientific illiteracy - just keeeeeeeep on comin'
 
Loud bangs do not cause shaking and vibrations. The survivors went to great pains to describe exceptionally loud bangs in quick succession.


'Oh it's OK, Honey, it was just the bow visor.'


I've already pointed out that these passenger reports - of multiple loud bangs over many minutes - are in fact wholly incompatible with conspiracy theories such as ramming by a submarine, striking with a torpedo, or the explosion of some sort of explosive material that was placed within the ship*.

And so far, I don't appear to see anything from you which addresses this rather glaring disparity.


* While at the same time, those reports (multiple loud bangs over many minutes) are entirely compatible with - and explainable by - the bow visor breaking loose on one side and banging repeatedly against the hull, together with the sound of cars/trucks/lorries sliding as the ship listed and crashing against each other and the inside of the hull. Again, you don't seem to have addressed any of this satisfactorily.
 
I've already pointed out that these passenger reports - of multiple loud bangs over many minutes - are in fact wholly incompatible with conspiracy theories such as ramming by a submarine, striking with a torpedo, or the explosion of some sort of explosive material that was placed within the ship*.

And so far, I don't appear to see anything from you which addresses this rather glaring disparity.


* While at the same time, those reports (multiple loud bangs over many minutes) are entirely compatible with - and explainable by - the bow visor breaking loose on one side and banging repeatedly against the hull, together with the sound of cars/trucks/lorries sliding as the ship listed and crashing against each other and the inside of the hull. Again, you don't seem to have addressed any of this satisfactorily.
‘‘Twas a cluster bomb. Obviously.
 
Cyclic deformation seems to be a fancy way of saying, 'metal fatigue'. However, the JAIC plainly states the vessel was seaworthy. In any case, I am rather sceptical that a deformation caused by an explosive or explosives would look exactly the same as 'metal fatigue' on a ship deemed as 'seaworthy'.


This is many delightful Baskin-Robbins flavours of wrong. Including my favourite flavour: "glaring scientific illiteracy".



Braidwood watched hours of Rockwater footage and arranged for the metal samples to be independently tested at three different laboratories, one in Texas, the other two in Germany, one of which also did forensic reports for the police. I daresay Braidwood was commissioned by Meyer Werft to prepare his expert witness statement. However, I don't think it is kind to claim that he was incompetent or didn't know his stuff, just because you refuse to believe there was any explosion.


Hang on - I thought Braidwood dived the wreck himself? :rolleyes:

(And what's with the "kind" thing??)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom