[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[Ziggurat]

Maybe. Data would prove it. Canada adopted this kind of law years ago. Surely there would be something measurable by now. Feel free to prove it.

I seriously doubt that any such data is available. In fact, why would it be? If the behavior is not criminal anymore, why would anyone track how often the behavior occurs? How would anyone track how often the behavior occurs?

 

[Meadmaker]

And if all Merager was doing is using the facilities as normal, then no crime at all occurred.

True.

But I notice that a previous arrest was for exposure in a locker room. Maybe that one was unfair, too. Can we at least acknowledge that normal use of a locker room by a male will sometimes result in other locker room user seeing that male's weiner?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

True.

But I notice that a previous arrest was for exposure in a locker room. Maybe that one was unfair, too. Can we at least acknowledge that normal use of a locker room by a male will sometimes result in other locker room user seeing that male's weiner?

Sure, but if I saw some guy staring at me naked and he had a raging hard-on, I would be uncomfortable even though we were both men. Likewise I assume women would not be pleased if another woman was visibly aroused while leering at them naked.

Actions, not identity, make things uncomfortable.

 

[Elaedith]

If I were a betting man, though, I'm going to guess there isn't going to be a lot of feminity discovered. The LAPD took their sweet time bringing these charges. I'm guessing they checked out the story and decided Darren wasn't really a girl.

Stay tuned.

If this winds up with the distinction between committing a repeat sex offence and 'using the facilities as normal' being based on whether or not Darren possesses a subjective identity that is unverifiable and sacrosanct, it could indeed be interesting.

 

[Meadmaker]

Sure, but if I saw some guy staring at me naked and he had a raging hard-on, I would be uncomfortable even though we were both men. Likewise I assume women would not be pleased if another woman was visibly aroused while leering at them naked.

Actions, not identity, make things uncomfortable.

Yes. Actions. Actions such as exposing a penis in a women's locker room.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

If this winds up with the distinction between committing a repeat sex offence and 'using the facilities as normal' being based on whether or not Darren possesses a subjective identity that is unverifiable and sacrosanct, it could indeed be interesting.

It depends on when the law changed, what behavior was happening, and when the alleged offense occurred.

 

[Meadmaker]

If this winds up with the distinction between committing a repeat sex offence and 'using the facilities as normal' being based on whether or not Darren possesses a subjective identity that is unverifiable and sacrosanct, it could indeed be interesting.

I think that's where it inevitably goes. For a man, it is impossible to "use the facilities as normal". His presence is abnormal.

So the prosecution's task will be to show, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Darren is a man.

In my youth that would have been pretty simple, but these days not so much.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I wish I could answer that, but I'm still struggling to get past why removing 1/8th of an inch of foreskin is a crime against humanity, while removing the entire genitalia is a step forward for humankind.

Voluntary versus involuntary.

If I want to poke a hole in my nipple for fashion's sake, that's fine. If YOU poke a hole in my nipple without my consent, that's an entirely different situation.

 

[Elaedith]

I seriously doubt that any such data is available. In fact, why would it be? If the behavior is not criminal anymore, why would anyone track how often the behavior occurs? How would anyone track how often the behavior occurs?

Exactly. This is like saying that a law which makes rape easier to get away with because it is harder to report and convict won't lead to an increase in rape. And if anyone says otherwise, they have to prove it by demonstrating an increase in rape convictions after the law change.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't see it that way. What I would see is that goal number 1 is becoming more like a female, so that your body more closely matches what you perceive your identity to be.

I think this used to be the objective, but I don't think it holds true anymore. I don't think it's reasonable to assume that the goal is to actually become more like a female. There are a LOT of males out there (some who are related to me) who have no interest and no intention at all of taking steps to materially conform to female physical signaling. Oh, sure, they'll take HRT so they can grow their own boobs, and they'll wear "girly" colors... but that's about it. Maybe they will shave their facial hair if they feel like it.

I think the dynamic has shifted. I think that most of the people who identify as transgender don't even have clinical gender dysphoria.

For example, take Eddie Izzard or Alex Drummond. Neither of them has any intention of taking cross-sex hormones or having any surgery. But they want to wear "women's" clothing and jewelry and wear make-up. For all intents and purposes, they should be considered transvestites. But they both now want everyone else to *perceive* them as being female, and treat them as if they are indistinguishable from any actual female. And it's just not going to happen, because both of them are incontrovertibly male.

 

[LondonJohn]

So I went back and looked. As best I could tell, it was about spectators.

I didn't see any commentary from you (LondonJohn) that suggested that the athletes themselves mattered.

Maybe I just didn't use the right search terms.

Maybe you didn't use the right critical thinking tools.

I'll make one additional effort to elaborate:

At sub-elite level, sport is a leisure pursuit - a competitive one, for sure, but a leisure pursuit nevertheless.

When it comes to the matter of ciswomen/girls at a sub-elite level who have ambitions to become elite-level athletes, they (in my model) will already be able to discount any transwomen/girls who might be beating them - since these people will pose no competitive threat to them at elite level. In addition, if ciswomen/girls and their families feel sufficiently strongly about the matter as to reject the validity of transwoman/girl competitors, they're perfectly at liberty to discount the efforts of those transwomen/girls in favour of a "ciswoman/girl leaderboard". If that's what floats their boat.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I think this used to be the objective, but I don't think it holds true anymore. I don't think it's reasonable to assume that the goal is to actually become more like a female. There are a LOT of males out there (some who are related to me) who have no interest and no intention at all of taking steps to materially conform to female physical signaling. Oh, sure, they'll take HRT so they can grow their own boobs, and they'll wear "girly" colors... but that's about it. Maybe they will shave their facial hair if they feel like it.

I think the dynamic has shifted. I think that most of the people who identify as transgender don't even have clinical gender dysphoria.

For example, take Eddie Izzard or Alex Drummond. Neither of them has any intention of taking cross-sex hormones or having any surgery. But they want to wear "women's" clothing and jewelry and wear make-up. For all intents and purposes, they should be considered transvestites. But they both now want everyone else to *perceive* them as being female, and treat them as if they are indistinguishable from any actual female. And it's just not going to happen, because both of them are incontrovertibly male.

Seems like a lot of confirmation bias at work. Trans people who don't "pass" are much more noticeable than those that do. By definition, you wouldn't know a woman was a trans woman if they were passing.

So yeah, you notice the trans woman with broad shoulders and a 5 o'clock shadow and you don't notice the trans woman with a tiny waist in a sundress.

 

[Emily's Cat]

In short, the further I dive into this morass the more I see misogyny, homophobia (particularly directed at lesbians) but even popular rapper Lil Nas X got flack for saying he likes [familiar form of Richard) and abuse of those with DSDs

I would add to that a shocking amount of racism as well. I've lost track of the number of times I've run across an argument on twitter or reddit or somewhere else that essentially says "If black women get to count as women then so do transwomen".

 

[LondonJohn]

Maybe. Data would prove it. Canada adopted this kind of law years ago. Surely there would be something measurable by now. Feel free to prove it.

And there's the rub.

It's open season on scaremongering (especially agenda-driven scaremongering) when almost everything is hypothetical. It's also open season on discovering single outlier events and dishonestly presenting them as evidence of the "new normal".

Yet, as you say, whenever one looks at comparator countries with similar socio-politico-economic profiles who are some way down these progressive roads - eg Canada for equal-access and England&Wales for prison stock - we (unsurprisingly enough) find that, in those real worlds, there is in fact a minuscule additional risk of injury, assault or discomfort to ciswomen.

As they say in LA: color me surprised.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Why is it bad for homosexuals?

Replacing "sex" with "gender identity" within the context of policy effectively negates rights accorded to people who are same-sex oriented.

And it leads to things like lesbians being harassed and threatened because they don't want to have sex with penises... something that lesbians have only recently managed to get past in society. And gay males being derided and labeled as bigots because they don't want to have sex with vaginas. And gay mean, wearing a t-shirt for gay and lesbian charity, being hounded out of a Pride Parade because they are exclusively same-SEX attracted rather than same-"Gender" attracted.

 

[Meadmaker]

Maybe you didn't use the right critical thinking tools.

I'll make one additional effort to elaborate:

At sub-elite level, sport is a leisure pursuit - a competitive one, for sure, but a leisure pursuit nevertheless.

When it comes to the matter of ciswomen/girls at a sub-elite level who have ambitions to become elite-level athletes, they (in my model) will already be able to discount any transwomen/girls who might be beating them - since these people will pose no competitive threat to them at elite level. In addition, if ciswomen/girls and their families feel sufficiently strongly about the matter as to reject the validity of transwoman/girl competitors, they're perfectly at liberty to discount the efforts of those transwomen/girls in favour of a "ciswoman/girl leaderboard". If that's what floats their boat.

I think the post quoted above made my point far better than anything I could have written. Your indifference to the young women athletes is palpable.

 

[Emily's Cat]

It's very telling that the trans exclusionists don't care about violations of body and privacy that are committed on women by cis-women.

Such as?

 

[LondonJohn]

Yes. Actions. Actions such as exposing a penis in a women's locker room.

Hoo boy. Look how far we've come.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The funny thing (IMO, of course) is:

1) Individuals who believe that transgender people ought to have rights that are commensurate with their trans gender and not their birth gender.... are routinely and aggressively accused of either a) disregarding the opinions/concerns of females and homosexuals, or b) actively holding misogynistic/homophobic beliefs.


Yet (again IMO, of course):

2) A similarly pejorative and provocative charge might easily be made against individuals who do not believe that transgender people ought to have rights that commensurate with their trans gender - that such individuals actually don't believe in the validity of transgender identity (instead choosing to believe that, eg, transwomen are blokes who cosplay in women's clothing, or that at least some transwomen are actually cismen who have nefarious motives in gaining access to ciswomen's spaces for sexual gratification or to cause harm to ciswomen).


The near-certain truth is that in both instances, only a small proportion of individuals fit those respective accusatory categories.

Yet the accusations are far, far more often levelled at individuals in group (1) than at the individuals in group (2). I wonder why that might be?

Well... that would be because there's a plethora of direct observation of the behavior being observed in group (1)... and virtually nobody actually exists in group (2) because it's a complete strawman.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

LondonJohn - direct question here.

Do you believe that a declaration of transgender identity turns a male person into a female person?

 

[LondonJohn]

I think the post quoted above made my point far better than anything I could have written. Your indifference to the young women athletes is palpable.

You see, I too can adopt this phoney holier-than-thou attitude, and tell you that your indifference to the young transwoman athletes (not to mention their rights in a progressive liberal society) is palpable. See how this works? (Or... doesn't work)