The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-Opened

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Vixen said:
The point being made is that it was considered imperative to search Captain Piht's cabin and obtain an attaché case, yet no attempt was made to try to identify the bodies on the bridge.

As accident investigators, you would think the JAIC would want to identify who exactly the 'driver of the vessel' was. and whether Captain Andresson did indeed go down with the ship, or even whether Captain Piht did.
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So why say you have no opinion?

Well the 'driver' would be whatever crew member was tasked with the helm on that watch, it changes, you usually do half an hour then swap. Whoever is in command of the bridge issues helm orders. That will have been the OOW or Captain after he was called to the bridge, or any officer delegated by the OOW or Captain if they need to leave the bridge for any reason.

As the command crew are all dead we won't know directly who was in charge of the bridge through the incident. All we can know is who is dead on the bridge after the sinking. That doesn't mean any one of them was in command through the incident.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Israel is involved now?

The conspiracy grows again.

Why would the CIA not just send them out on one of their own aircraft?
Did they go to the USA or Netherlands?

What do they have to do with the supposedly missing passengers?

If someone has proof why not publish it?

What is there to show any involvement at all?
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The blogger is claiming that Sweden once disappeared two Egyptians to the USA in, iirc, 2000, so in what is habit becoming convention, maybe Sweden was just doing what it had done before, he appears to be asking.

The blogger produces the receipts for these planes, as provided by the named chief of the department.
 
Vixen said:
If you want to travel to the USA from Europe it is quite normal to fly to key airports, such as Schipol, Frankfurt or Heathrow in order to do so.

If the stuff is smuggled out of course you would use a private aircraft.
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Why, if it is a military operation would you complicate it by involving civil airlines and all the extra people needed to ship by cargo plane when you can use your own aircraft from a military airbase?

As you have noted one of the aircraft flew direct so why also use one via Netherlands and involve a whole load of people there too?

What do Israel have to do with it?
 
Vixen said:
You would certainly identify 'the driver'.

My car rescue service magazine Autoliitto regularly publishes the intricate details of the latest fatal car accidents in Finland -in the interests of safer driving - and it always makes clear who the driver was, per age and gender (privacy laws prevent further identification). How can you begin to understand an accident if you don't even know who was at the wheel or even attempt to ascertain this key fact?
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Can you see why a car crash is different to a ship sinking?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Israel is involved now?

The conspiracy grows again.

Why would the CIA not just send them out on one of their own aircraft?
Did they go to the USA or Netherlands?

What do they have to do with the supposedly missing passengers?

If someone has proof why not publish it?

What is there to show any involvement at all?
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Everyone is involved. It is a worldwide conspiracy. Even the storm was manufactured in order to make the appearance of an "accident" more realistic.

Honestly, the "dustification" narrative of the WTC was more realistic than this is turning out to be. Involved fewer conspirators too.
 
Vixen said:
I have no opinion as to who the tattooed man on the bridge might be or his role in the accident. However, IMV the JAIC should have at least attempted to identify who was steering the ship throughout the accident timeline, together with the assisting officers.
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Why do you think it would be one person steering the ship throughout?
Why do you think there would be anyone steering after power was lost?
Does a Roro steering flat have a had steering system?
Is there provision to relay orders from the bridge to the steering flat on a Roro ferry after power is lost?
If the engines have stopped how would you steer the ship?
 
Vixen said:
I have no opinion as to who the tattooed man on the bridge might be or his role in the accident. However, IMV the JAIC should have at least attempted to identify who was steering the ship throughout the accident timeline, together with the assisting officers.
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Shockingly is it may sound, I would actually agree somewhat with Vixen.
In that who was in charge (not only on the bridge, but also on the steering wheel and in the engine room) is interesting to know. Certainly if you could plot these on a timeline.

It would serve as a very valuable course in 'break down of command' and teaching how the process could have progressed to a point where a barely seaworthy vessel was pushed way beyond it's capability and there was no one who even thought of intervening.

Of course there's the whole subject of the majority of people dying and thus the impossibility of ever completing this task, but in and of itself it would be a very valuable lesson to know.

A bit like the crash of the B-52 at Fairchild airbase or the aircraft collision in Tenerife, way back in the '70s are extremely valuable lessons to learn about breakdown of command.


Still the sinking of the Estonia had nothing to do with any submarines, above or under the water, or even flying.
 
Vixen said:
The blogger is claiming that Sweden once disappeared two Egyptians to the USA in, iirc, 2000, so in what is habit becoming convention, maybe Sweden was just doing what it had done before, he appears to be asking.

The blogger produces the receipts for these planes, as provided by the named chief of the department.
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So the missing passengers were sent on civilian cargo planes?

What does Israel have to do with it?
 
Steve said:
Everyone is involved. It is a worldwide conspiracy. Even the storm was manufactured in order to make the appearance of an "accident" more realistic.

Honestly, the "dustification" narrative of the WTC was more realistic than this is turning out to be. Involved fewer conspirators too.
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HAARP?
 
erwinl said:
Shockingly is it may sound, I would actually agree somewhat with Vixen.
In that who was in charge (not only on the bridge, but also on the steering wheel and in the engine room) is interesting to know. Certainly if you could plot these on a timeline.

It would serve as a very valuable course in 'break down of command' and teaching how the process could have progressed to a point where a barely seaworthy vessel was pushed way beyond it's capability and there was no one who even thought of intervening.

Of course there's the whole subject of the majority of people dying and thus the impossibility of ever completing this task, but in and of itself it would be a very valuable lesson to know.

A bit like the crash of the B-52 at Fairchild airbase or the aircraft collision in Tenerife, way back in the '70s are extremely valuable lessons to learn about breakdown of command.


Still the sinking of the Estonia had nothing to do with any submarines, above or under the water, or even flying.
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Who was on the bridge is somewhat important but after the abandon ship was given any bodies you find could be random.

You would expect the Captain and the OOW to be the lest to leave but that isn't always a given

In the Oceanos sinking the captain and crew abandoned ship without even alerting the passengers. It was domestic staff and entertainers that led the evacuation.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Why, if it is a military operation would you complicate it by involving civil airlines and all the extra people needed to ship by cargo plane when you can use your own aircraft from a military airbase?

As you have noted one of the aircraft flew direct so why also use one via Netherlands and involve a whole load of people there too?

What do Israel have to do with it?
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I have no idea. German investigative journalist Jutta Rabe claims she has seen the proof of this. She may or may not be a crackpot but it is interesting she has certainly been heavily vilified, perhaps understandably in making a commercial film, Baltic Storm, out of the tragedy. Note also, how Graham Philips in his film (starring Paul Barney) absolutely crucifies her and rubbishes her film. Anyone famliar with Graham Philips, will recall he was once arrested in Ukraine around the time of their troubles as a pro-Russian agitator. Philips is a known Russo-phile and worked for a Russian tv/radio station as of the time of the Ukraine crisis. As Rabe believes Russia lies behind the sabotage of the Estonia - as per her film, which she claims is a close approximation as to what happened in her view - it is little surprise that Philips furiously disagrees with her.

The more one discovers about this incident, the more Rabe seems to have been on to something.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Who was on the bridge is somewhat important but after the abandon ship was given any bodies you find could be random.

You would expect the Captain and the OOW to be the lest to leave but that isn't always a given

In the Oceanos sinking the captain and crew abandoned ship without even alerting the passengers. It was domestic staff and entertainers that led the evacuation.
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That is true
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Why do you think it would be one person steering the ship throughout?
Why do you think there would be anyone steering after power was lost?
Does a Roro steering flat have a had steering system?
Is there provision to relay orders from the bridge to the steering flat on a Roro ferry after power is lost?
If the engines have stopped how would you steer the ship?
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If there was a half-hourly rota of who was steering that should have been made clear. Could the JAIC not have asked its three star witnesses?

There was an emergency generator, which third engineer, Sillaste, calims he was trying to reach via the funnel steps.
 
Vixen said:
I have no idea. German investigative journalist Jutta Rabe claims she has seen the proof of this. She may or may not be a crackpot but it is interesting she has certainly been heavily vilified, perhaps understandably in making a commercial film, Baltic Storm, out of the tragedy. Note also, how Graham Philips in his film (starring Paul Barney) absolutely crucifies her and rubbishes her film. Anyone famliar with Graham Philips, will recall he was once arrested in Ukraine around the time of their troubles as a pro-Russian agitator. Philips is a known Russo-phile and worked for a Russian tv/radio station as of the time of the Ukraine crisis. As Rabe believes Russia lies behind the sabotage of the Estonia - as per her film, which she claims is a close approximation as to what happened in her view - it is little surprise that Philips furiously disagrees with her.

The more one discovers about this incident, the more Rabe seems to have been on to something.
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So why doesn't Rabe publish her evidence and end all the speculation?
 
Vixen said:
First of all, that writer gets the date of the Rome Treaty (Criminal Law) wrong. It should read 1988 not 1998.

You should note that it was a whistleblower - chief of his department - who revealed the cargo plane receipts for the relevant dates on which he believed the nine passengers were shipped out to the Netherlands and the USA.

It was a customs officer who came forward about the covert smuggling of FSU arms and electronics. All named people who came out as a matter of ethics and principles.
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Sorry, wrong link. By "this guy" I meant this guy, whom the previous page links in turn. It's none other than our old friend Anders Bjorkman.

You reproduced word for word, and ellipse for ellipse, the excerpt from the Aftonbladet that appears in Bjorkman's e-book. It also appears to the be the source for a lot of your characterization.

It actually provides the answer to a question I asked you twice and which you never answered for some reason: your source for other claims about what the "Aftonbladet" says, such as that Y-64 took off just after two.

So when you tried to pretend that you were relying on and quoting early news reports that you don't actually have access to, were you just using Bjorkman? Does your knowledge of the events, of what the JAIC report says, and what the news of the time says, begin and end with Bjorkman?
 
Vixen said:
If there was a half-hourly rota of who was steering that should have been made clear. Could the JAIC not have asked its three star witnesses?

There was an emergency generator, which third engineer, Sillaste, calims he was trying to reach via the funnel steps.
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How would they know who was on the helm at any given time?
You know the helmsman just follows the orders of the OOW?
On the ships I served aboard the helmsman wasn't even on the bridge, he was down in the hull.
An emergency generator would not supply the tillers.
Even whith power to the helm if the engines are stopped the ship can't be steered, it will turn side on to the waves.
 
Reformed Offlian said:
Sorry, wrong link. By "this guy" I meant this guy, whom the previous page links in turn. It's none other than our old friend Anders Bjorkman.

You reproduced word for word, and ellipse for ellipse, the excerpt from the Aftonbladet that appears in Bjorkman's e-book. It also appears to the be the source for a lot of your characterization.

It actually provides the answer to a question I asked you twice and which you never answered for some reason: your source for other claims about what the "Aftonbladet" says, such as that Y-64 took off just after two.

So when you tried to pretend that you were relying on and quoting early news reports that you don't actually have access to, were you just using Bjorkman? Does your knowledge of the events, of what the JAIC report says, and what the news of the time says, begin and end with Bjorkman?
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Bjorkman believes the accident was a straighforward breach of the hull. His key argument is that had the hull not been breached the vessel would simply have turtled. This is not particularly controversial IMV. Bjorkman is heavily defamed as a 'conspiracy theorist' because of his 9/11 and moon landings beliefs.

That doesn't cancel out Bjorkman's expertise in marine architecture/engineering.

Let's face it , calling someone a 'conspiracy theorist' is the new defamation, hence the attempt by people claiming to be sceptics - but IMV more closely adherrent to mass media believers - to vilify this thread as a conspiracy theory when it is an important current news item, as immediate and as salient as Hurricane Ida hitting Louisiana. People think it's their job to 'shut it down' not realising the massive implications of Sweden, Finland and Estonia accepting that the hole in the Estonia is a serious and key piece of new evidence that is potentially enough to render the original JAIC verdict as 'no-one's fault except the bow visor had a weak design which meant a few strong waves caused the bow visor to fall off, thus seawater flooding the car deck' as complete and utter nonsense and the 29 survivor who reported explosions and/or a collision as having been correct all along.


Who cares if one of the persons who believes the JAIC report is woefully deficient and defective happens to be someone RO once sparred with on ISF and appears to have been banned, I presume for upsetting too many people?

This is not about personalities or whether you like or dislike certain posters, it is about the facts of the matter surrounding the sinking of the Estonia 28 Sept 1994. This cannot be denied or brushed under the carpet.
 
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