Okee dokee, you guys (specifically Zenith-Nadir, Mycroft and Skeptic) are already deep into ad hom and strawman territory. I have known for a while that you can't discuss this (and other subjects) in good faith, that further proves it.
Anyway, no need to insist on the fact that I know you're a bunch of partisan hacks, eh?
Cheerio, chaps! Have fun talking to yourselves.
Anyway, no need to insist on the fact that I know you're a bunch of partisan hacks, eh?
Cheerio, chaps! Have fun talking to yourselves.
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zenith-nadir
Illuminator
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I cannot speak for Mycroft and Skeptic but please repost my ad homs and strawmen so that I may debate them or retract them. Standing by.
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
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Screw you guys, I'm going home!
Attachments
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
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You just don’t get it. You’re the partisan hack. You’re the woo-woo who refuses to look at evidence.
What puts perspective on the whole deal?! Your speculation?!
You’re arguing a position without any evidence. You guess things are a certain way, and that’s enough evidence for you.
I'm sorry, but in the real world you learn about things by researching them, not by using your imagination to fill in the details of your preconceptions.
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
The thread has gotten a bit sidetracked from the original subject; and I wanted to return to it for a moment. There's something about this story that has been really bothering me since I first read it, but wasn't able to put my finger on until now; and I don't think I've seen anyone else mention it.
It feels staged.
I'm sure I'm going to be dismissed as a "partisan hack", and my comments written off as "rank speculation", and I'm sure i'm probably missing something, but there's just too much about this that rings false to me.
It's completely atypical. The circumstances were highly unsual compared with most other kidnappings in the area, as far as I can tell. A brand new terrorist organization no one's heard of before; very short-term hostage-keeping; the only hostages are a single, small family; the choice of hostages is odd in other ways, since I don't seem to recall kidnapping of obvious sympathizers before; the circumstances of their release are too clean and pat, particularly the "goodwill gesture" and apology nonsense; the treatment of the prisoners seems far to clean, particularly compared to past kidnappings, and they don't "display" their hostages the way that other terrorist groups do; the former victim expressing solidarity with her captors after her release; Burton worked for an agency known to have at least informal contact with numerous terrorist organizations; claims of secret deals with the British government; and so on.
There have been a few other short-term kidnappings of foreigners, but seemingly only as harassments, nothing like this.
It just seems too Hollywood-plot to be real.
It feels staged.
I'm sure I'm going to be dismissed as a "partisan hack", and my comments written off as "rank speculation", and I'm sure i'm probably missing something, but there's just too much about this that rings false to me.
It's completely atypical. The circumstances were highly unsual compared with most other kidnappings in the area, as far as I can tell. A brand new terrorist organization no one's heard of before; very short-term hostage-keeping; the only hostages are a single, small family; the choice of hostages is odd in other ways, since I don't seem to recall kidnapping of obvious sympathizers before; the circumstances of their release are too clean and pat, particularly the "goodwill gesture" and apology nonsense; the treatment of the prisoners seems far to clean, particularly compared to past kidnappings, and they don't "display" their hostages the way that other terrorist groups do; the former victim expressing solidarity with her captors after her release; Burton worked for an agency known to have at least informal contact with numerous terrorist organizations; claims of secret deals with the British government; and so on.
There have been a few other short-term kidnappings of foreigners, but seemingly only as harassments, nothing like this.
It just seems too Hollywood-plot to be real.
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
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I was thinking the same thing.
A year or more ago there were some similar kidnappings in Iraq where allegations were made that those who were kidnapped were willing participants, and I honestly don't remember how those came out, but this kidnapping here had very much the same feel to it.
webfusion
Philosopher
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darn it
Look what happens, miss a few hours around here and Orwell jumps in, throws around all sorts of annoying comments, and then quickly rushes out again, throwing a one-finger salute in parting...
Heck, I missed all the fun.
Israel certainly commits human rights abuses. The truth be told, Orwell, the IDF actually does kill people who are totally innocent of any type of wrongdoing whatsoever. Their rights to live are terminated. By the IDF.
Full stop.
I even started a thread about lawsuits in an American court, specifically one against a man named Avi Dichter. This is a man who is now in the Israeli political arena, teamed-up with KADIMA. What is his lawsuit about?
The lawsuit was submitted on behalf of the family members of 14 Palestinians who were killed when the IDF dropped a one-ton bomb on a Gaza neighborhood in July 2002 during the targeted killing of Hamas leader Salah Shehadeh. The compensation sought in that case is estimated in the millions of dollars.
I don't know if this is a classic case of human rights abuses, (the circumstances are pretty clear that the target of the bomb was the Palestinian equivalent of a guy like Osama BinLaden) but I welcome you to speak about that issue within the context of that 9-page thread, if you wish, Orwell.
Sure, we all know that people are getting killed, and there are plenty of innocent victims of this war. If that was what you were asking in the "for starters" question, then the answer is "yep".
========================================
I suppose it isn't worth going so far back on the thread, especially since the author of the posting addressed to me is off for greener pastures, but Orwell brought up a remark I made, while I was talking about the terrorists who are doing everything they can to kill Israelis and other residents of this world (in their homes, in their schools, in their malls, in their busses). What was my statement?
"Screw them, and screw the civilians who think they can go out to the streets of gaza, or ramallah or damascus or beirut and cheer the terrorists as heros, with no penalties or deterrance facing them from any quarter."
This was not a comment about palestinians. This was a general comment about widespread islamic fanaticism spreading and engulfing our entire human civilization, and how pitiful for us all if we don't act to thwart them.
For example: Recent cheering section of arab civilians:
and yeah, I did say, "screw them" ---
You be a funny guy, Orwell, keeping us laughing a lot. Too bad you get so easily frustrated and keep leaving...
Look what happens, miss a few hours around here and Orwell jumps in, throws around all sorts of annoying comments, and then quickly rushes out again, throwing a one-finger salute in parting...
Heck, I missed all the fun.
For starters? Starters to what? How does this connect with the OP, the thread, the entire discussion here? Amazing question.
Israel certainly commits human rights abuses. The truth be told, Orwell, the IDF actually does kill people who are totally innocent of any type of wrongdoing whatsoever. Their rights to live are terminated. By the IDF.
Full stop.
I even started a thread about lawsuits in an American court, specifically one against a man named Avi Dichter. This is a man who is now in the Israeli political arena, teamed-up with KADIMA. What is his lawsuit about?
The lawsuit was submitted on behalf of the family members of 14 Palestinians who were killed when the IDF dropped a one-ton bomb on a Gaza neighborhood in July 2002 during the targeted killing of Hamas leader Salah Shehadeh. The compensation sought in that case is estimated in the millions of dollars.
I don't know if this is a classic case of human rights abuses, (the circumstances are pretty clear that the target of the bomb was the Palestinian equivalent of a guy like Osama BinLaden) but I welcome you to speak about that issue within the context of that 9-page thread, if you wish, Orwell.
Sure, we all know that people are getting killed, and there are plenty of innocent victims of this war. If that was what you were asking in the "for starters" question, then the answer is "yep".
========================================
I suppose it isn't worth going so far back on the thread, especially since the author of the posting addressed to me is off for greener pastures, but Orwell brought up a remark I made, while I was talking about the terrorists who are doing everything they can to kill Israelis and other residents of this world (in their homes, in their schools, in their malls, in their busses). What was my statement?
"Screw them, and screw the civilians who think they can go out to the streets of gaza, or ramallah or damascus or beirut and cheer the terrorists as heros, with no penalties or deterrance facing them from any quarter."
This was not a comment about palestinians. This was a general comment about widespread islamic fanaticism spreading and engulfing our entire human civilization, and how pitiful for us all if we don't act to thwart them.
For example: Recent cheering section of arab civilians:
and yeah, I did say, "screw them" ---
You be a funny guy, Orwell, keeping us laughing a lot. Too bad you get so easily frustrated and keep leaving...
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First of all, Orwell, you have repeatedly proven you know next to nothing about human nature.
Second, I like your logic. You know absolutely nothing about what appears in israeli schoolbooks, so you make the baseless guess that they are "filled with nationalist hokum". But since you used the magic words "pretty sure" and "certain degree of certitude", your guess is now a "fact", and it is up to us to prove it wrong...
By the same logic, Orwell, I know nothing about what the moon is made of, but I know enough about planets (from reading children's fairy tales--which are about as reliable about them as your internet "sources" are about israel) to speculate, pretty surely, with a certain degree of certitute, that it is made of green cheese.
There. I used the magic words "certitude" and "surely", so if you want to argue otherwise, you better first disprove what I say. Not that I'll listen anyway, since the act of presenting facts I don't like are proof you are a "moon is only made of rock" partisan hack.
Surely--again, using your logic--since some people say the moon is made of rock and others that it is made of green cheese, the truth just has to be that it is 50% rock and 50% green cheese, or some similar percentage. You will just not listen to any partisan hacks that tell you the moon is actually more than 90% rock.
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webfusion
Philosopher
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Imaginal Disc offers:
Considering the majority of the adult population of Israel has been through the military, and we keep our combat boots in the hall closet for emergencies, I think you will find that the IDF is overflowing with sanity and empathy.
And good-looking in the bargain:
Considering the majority of the adult population of Israel has been through the military, and we keep our combat boots in the hall closet for emergencies, I think you will find that the IDF is overflowing with sanity and empathy.
And good-looking in the bargain:
zenith-nadir
Illuminator
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Hard to say... but this happened today "in protest" of the arrest of a local leader on suspicion of involvement in the kidnapping:
(emphasis mine)
A Palestinian member of al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades stops travellers after closing the Gaza border crossing with Egypt, in Rafah January 4, 2006. Firing into the air, Palestinian gunmen blocked access to Gaza's Rafah border crossing to Egypt and stormed government offices on Wednesday in growing unrest ahead of a Palestinian election later this month. The gunmen, from al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, a renegade militant group in the ruling Fatah faction, went on the rampage after a local leader was arrested by police on suspicion of involvement in the kidnapping of three Britons last week. REUTERS/Ibraheem Abu Mustafa
Palestinian members of al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades plant a bomb under the wall of the Gaza border crossing with Egypt, in Rafah January 4, 2006. REUTERS/Ibraheem Abu Mustafa
Jan 4, 2006
GAZA (Reuters) - Firing into the air, Palestinian gunmen briefly blocked access to Gaza's Rafah border crossing to Egypt and stormed government offices on Wednesday in growing unrest ahead of a Palestinian election later this month.
The gunmen, from al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, a renegade militant group in the ruling Fatah faction, went on the rampage after police arrested a local leader on suspicion of involvement in the kidnapping of three Britons last week.
The gunmen, who earlier planted bombs at the border terminal, said they would prevent voting in Rafah in a January 25 parliamentary election unless Palestinian security forces freed their leader.
"We have not yet received answers on our demands to immediately release Ala al-Hams (the kidnapping suspect)," said a spokesman for the gunmen who called himself Abu Yazan.
"(The elections office) will remain closed and we will not allow parliamentary elections to be held in Rafah unless Ala (al-Hams) is released," Abu Yazan said.
Gunmen detonated a bomb under a barrier along the Gaza-Egypt border and took over an office in charge of the Palestinian security services in protest at Hams's arrest.
The gunmen also threatened to kidnap any Palestinian Authority official who passed through the Rafah crossing.
What a bunch of swell guys these Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades terrorists are...they not only have they murdered and terrorized Israelis for the past ten years but now they attack and terrorize Palestinians and foreigners as too..... I guess it is just another example of their legitimate reaction to the Israeli occupation....oh...wait...Gaza is unoccupied now...
What a bunch of swell guys these Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades terrorists are...they not only have they murdered and terrorized Israelis for the past ten years but now they attack and terrorize Palestinians and foreigners as too...
I mean, what else do you expect them to do? Apart from terror and killing they know absolutely nothing. This is not a uniquely Palestinian/israeli problem it's why most "liberation" (i.e., terrorist) movements turn into dictatorships if they are succesful in "liberating"--usually meaning "killing and expelling those from undesireable ethnic groups"--a country.
I am reminded here of a post-war cartoon by David Low, during the Nuremberg trials. It shows Nazis in prison, and the caption reads: "Even if the Allies authority lets us go after the trial, Himmler, I just can't see you settling down to manage a small grocery store or something."
I mean, what else do you expect them to do? Apart from terror and killing they know absolutely nothing. This is not a uniquely Palestinian/israeli problem it's why most "liberation" (i.e., terrorist) movements turn into dictatorships if they are succesful in "liberating"--usually meaning "killing and expelling those from undesireable ethnic groups"--a country.
I am reminded here of a post-war cartoon by David Low, during the Nuremberg trials. It shows Nazis in prison, and the caption reads: "Even if the Allies authority lets us go after the trial, Himmler, I just can't see you settling down to manage a small grocery store or something."
zenith-nadir
Illuminator
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Instead of planting bombs at the border terminals plant trees and gardens for parks...instead of kidnapping foreigners make public wooden benches for senior citizens...instead of going on rampages with guns firing into the air renovate schools, hospitals or help build homes for the needy...instead of storming Palestinian election offices help clean up the streets, help renovate the Gaza Zoo....I guess I am crazy to dream that.
By the way, where exactly were the Palestinian Security forces when Fatah terrorists stormed their one and only international border crossing?
David Swidler
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So we've got all these Palestinian factions and an apparently weak governing authority. Let's assume, for simplicity's sake, that Abbas is in fact too weak to confront the various other parties, and Gaza is a now the Wild West. I have a few troubling questions.
1. Aside from reacting to / thwarting rocket and mortar attacks, what can Israel do? Reoccupying the Gaza Strip would be counterproductive, to say the least (though it might unite the fighting Palestinian factions). The stage is now set for a repeat of Lebanon, and Hezbollah hasn't exactly gone away on that front.
2. What can/should Abbas do? He seems to have a Hobson's choice.
2a. Is an eventual Hamas-run PA an inevitability?
3. What should the rest of the world do, aside from spewing platitudes about cycles of violence, peace processes, etc.?
1. Aside from reacting to / thwarting rocket and mortar attacks, what can Israel do? Reoccupying the Gaza Strip would be counterproductive, to say the least (though it might unite the fighting Palestinian factions). The stage is now set for a repeat of Lebanon, and Hezbollah hasn't exactly gone away on that front.
2. What can/should Abbas do? He seems to have a Hobson's choice.
2a. Is an eventual Hamas-run PA an inevitability?
3. What should the rest of the world do, aside from spewing platitudes about cycles of violence, peace processes, etc.?
David Swidler
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Trees and gardens? Let's get even more basic. Are you aware how many places - major population centers - in the Gaza Strip still have open sewers running through the streets? It's the most densely populated place in the world, with one of the highest birthrates. The UN (mostly) tries to do what it can (with tacit and sometimes open assistance from Israel) as far as medical care and food go, but that can't go on forever.
zenith-nadir
Illuminator
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Exactly my point. The terrorists don't really care about "the Palestinians" or "Palestinian Nationalism" if they truely did they would not be threatening the Palestinian Authority they would obey it, they would not storm election offices they would protect them as the very heart of Palestinian Nationalism, they would not kidnap foreign aid workers or lay bombs at border crossings into Egypt they would be helping to rebuild and restore Gaza's image. Instead they terrorize everyone, including their own.
The myth of "legitimate reaction to the Israeli occupation" is debunked and the terror groups in Gaza are exposed for what they really are, terrorists.
rikzilla
Ninja wave: Atomic fire-breath ninja
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What? The tyrant didn't take care of his own people while pocketing billions?
Well...typical really. This is why even a democratically elected HAMAS government in Palestine is better than Arafat was. Hey; people might start holding a HAMAS government responsible for their economy, infrastructure, etc. HAMAS would be losing elections before long if their only contribution to Palestinian society is more death, destruction, and hardship.
-z
ImaginalDisc
Penultimate Amazing
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That only changes the issue of a self-selecting group who think the military is great, to a the issue of a group of people who are compelled to serve while they're still young. Both programs suck. Sadly, I don't really have a better alternative. It's not really the nature of militaries that's the problem, it's what they're asked to do.
rikzilla
Ninja wave: Atomic fire-breath ninja
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There's a lot of people who don't like the police or the military; but the fact is; they're necessary. The people who do these jobs risk their lives every day; and this free society we all enjoy would be impossible without them. I can tell you ID; there is plenty of sanity and empathy among the people in uniform. I used to be one of them...and the people I met in the service so long ago are still very important to me. They are literally some of the best individuals I have ever met.
-z