The supernatural

[Scorpion]

Perhaps they are like your Karma Angels so aren't allowed to prove they exist?

heydarian is telling us Jinn and Demons are real and have a physical presence
that can be detected with instruments.

 

[Pixel42]

Hi dear friend. I have only one question. Did the universe come about by chance? Or can matter create the universe? Just tell me, how did the universe come into being?

Nobody knows. We can only speculate. Some of those speculations assume a God, others do not. There is no objective evidence that favours one speculation over another, though those that minimise entities (i.e. the non God ones) should be preferred accordingly to Occam's Razor. But nobody knows.

I know it started with a big, technical explosion.

As has already been explained to you the Big Bang, despite its name, was not an explosion. It was the start of an expansion phase which began about 14 billion years ago. What happened before that, whether indeed the word 'before' even has meaning in this context, is not known, and may forever be unknowable.

 

[Scorpion]

You either do not read my answers at all or you look at them superficially. The author and sender of all the holy books of religions is one person. It is God. The Qur'an is the last divine book that was written by Muhammad to be read to human beings. If you have several books and you repeat some of them in some of your books or make them more complete, have you committed plagiarism ?! The books are all yours. So you are allowed to repeat or complete the story and print it. Is it irrational ?!

As I understand it the Quran was not written by Muhammad, it was compiled by his followers some time after his death.

 

[Warp12]

As I understand it the Quran was not written by Muhammad, it was compiled by his followers some time after his death.

Sounds familiar.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Muslims are fond of saying that the quran is a miracle, because it was dictated by an illiterate Arab who had no access to the bible. Therefore it must have come from God. The quran itself even says it must be from God, Because it confirms all the previous messages. But how would Muhammad know that if he had never heard the bible.

In fact there is a hadith in which Muhammad sends for the Torah to have it read to him, to decide the fate of a Jew and Jewess for committing adultery, and because the Torah says the punishment is stoning Muhammad had them stoned. This proves he knew the bible well.

Here are three verses in the quran that mention the psalms of the bible by name.


004.163 We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.

017.055 And it is your Lord that knoweth best all beings that are in the heavens and on earth: We did bestow on some prophets more (and other) gifts than on others: and We gave to David (the gift of) the Psalms.

021.105 Before this We wrote in the Psalms, after the Message (given to Moses): My servants the righteous, shall inherit the earth."

In any case the quran mentions the Torah, or the books of Moses and Abraham at many verses; Here are some references.

surah 3.48 surah 4.54 surah 11.17 surah 11.110 surah 19.41 surah 17.2 surah 17.4 surah 23.49 surah 25.35 surah 40.53 surah 41.45 surah 45.16 surah 46.12 surah 53.36 surah 87.19 surah 28.2 surah 32.2 surah

The Greek bible was readily available long before Muhammad's time, and it is well know that Muslim raiders took many manuscripts along with other plunder.
What is even more obvious is that the greater part of the quran quotes bible story after bible story, and many of these quotes are about Jewish old Testament myths that are obviously no part of real history, and their source can only be Jewish scribes that invented them to promote their own agenda.
There has been much work done on bible criticism, and some of it to show that the story of Noah's ark, and Jonah and the whale, and Adam and Eve, and the drowning of Pharaohs army, and such stories, have no foundation in reality. But the quran claims them all as a previous message from God.

Yes, in the Qur'an, the names of the prophets before Muhammad and also the names of their books are mentioned even more than the names of Muhammad and the Qur'an itself !! Does this matter to you plagiarism? !! No, this is not the case. The Prophet has brought tips and stories from every era and every book. And each one contains important content. How similar the present age is to the age of Muhammad! Where are we. In the 21st century or in the 7th century. I made a scientific point from a seventh century book. And I did not stay there and used it for the present evening. But you seem to be in the same seventh century. Dad, get out of there. نمانید. You told me that I had read the ancient book of legends and had a scientific understanding.
I just said the scientific point and the day's interpretation of it. And I am no more, but what about you? You are still in the seventh century and in the ancient Qur'an. Take his scientific point and come out.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Nobody knows. We can only speculate. Some of those speculations assume a God, others do not. There is no objective evidence that favours one speculation over another, though those that minimise entities (i.e. the non God ones) should be preferred accordingly to Occam's Razor. But nobody knows.


As has already been explained to you the Big Bang, despite its name, was not an explosion. It was the start of an expansion phase which began about 14 billion years ago. What happened before that, whether indeed the word 'before' even has meaning in this context, is not known, and may forever be unknowable.

Hello madam. How much more logical and realistic do you speak than other friends? Yes, the latest results of materialist philosophy have reached the same conclusion. And the best word is what you said. Nobody knows. And no one knows before him. This is the best answer. Divine and existential philosophy is also based on the Qur'an. And the name of the creature that created the universe and has been before it and will be after it
Has introduced "God".
Thank you for your kindness.

 

[Scorpion]

Yes, in the Qur'an, the names of the prophets before Muhammad and also the names of their books are mentioned even more than the names of Muhammad and the Qur'an itself !! Does this matter to you plagiarism? !! No, this is not the case. The Prophet has brought tips and stories from every era and every book. And each one contains important content.

Yea, well the infancy gospel of Jesus is from a known book of fables. So what is it doing in the Quran purporting to be the words of God.?

The story in the quran concerning Jesus childhood, about an incident where he makes a clay bird and brings it to life is not a part of the Christian bible, and the original texts are considered apocryphal. They are regarded by Christian scholars as having been written in around 150AD, as propaganda by the early Christians, attempting to fill in the missing years of Jesus life.So what are these stories doing in the quran claiming to be a message from God?

The following are two verses in the quran that contain the references.
From the Yusuf Ali translation.

003.049 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in
your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

005.110 Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold ! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'


As can be seen the quran speaks of only one bird, and says Jesus breathed life into it. But the only historical text that contains such a story speaks of 12 birds, and they were brought to life by Jesus commanding them to "Go". Therefore the quran does not even get the details of the original fictional document correct. Added to this the New Testament states that Jesus did his first miracle at a time he was around thirty years old. (John 2.11)

Here is the relevant text, translated from Greek and written in, The Apocryphal New Testament, by M.R.James, published by Oxford:Clarendon press, 1924.
The stories of Thomas the Israelite, (not St Thomas of the bible) the philosopher, concerning the works of the childhood of the Lord.

1. I, Thomas the Israelite, tell you, and all the brethren that are Gentile, the works of the childhood of our Lord Jesus Christ and his mighty deeds, and all that he did when he was born in our land.
2.1 This little child Jesus when he was five years old was playing at the ford of a brook: and he gathered together the water that flowed there into pools, and made them clean, and commanded them by his word alone.
2.2 Having made soft clay, he fashioned twelve sparrows. It was the Sabbath when he did these things. And there were also many other little children playing with him.
2.3. A certain Jew when he saw what Jesus did, playing upon the Sabbath day, departed and told his father Joseph: your child is at the brook, and he has taken clay and fashioned twelve little birds, and has polluted the Sabbath day.
2.4. Joseph came to the place and saw: and cried out to him, saying: Why do you do these things on the Sabbath, which it is not lawful to do? But Jesus clapped his hands together and cried out to the sparrows and said to them: Go! and the sparrows took their flight and went away chirping.
2.5 when the Jews saw it they were amazed, and departed and told their chief men that which they had seen Jesus do.

There is a reference to this story, and the flaws in it in the book.
The original sources of the quran. by William St Clair Tisdall.
This book is in the public domain and can be found on the Internet.

 

[junkshop]

I have strong philosophical reasons for jinns and demons that are of the material kind. And they are not supernatural. Anyone who says these are supernatural and can communicate is lying. These are made of delicate material and can be seen with special tools and technology with material tools. I have no duty to discuss this here. But I know. I also advise you not to seek to discover this issue. Because you get hurt. I like you.

Sweet Heydarian,
You brought up your mythical boogeymen, so don't be suprised if people ask you to back up your claims about them.

As you have repeated those claims, I ask again for your evidence that they are natural, and would also like to know what are these 'special tools and technology' that can see them?

ETA: While I am flattered that you like me, your religion teaches that you shouldn't, what with my being an unbeliever and all. I wouldn't want you to risk your eternal reward over my undeniable likeability.

 

[Pixel42]

Hello madam. How much more logical and realistic do you speak than other friends? Yes, the latest results of materialist philosophy have reached the same conclusion. And the best word is what you said. Nobody knows. And no one knows before him. This is the best answer. Divine and existential philosophy is also based on the Qur'an. And the name of the creature that created the universe and has been before it and will be after it
Has introduced "God".

You admit that nobody knows, and then claim to know. You constantly contradict yourself.

And there is plenty of 'divine and existential philosophy' that is not based on the Qu'ran, which seems to me a very inferior source of it. But it's pretty much all worthless, IMO.

 

[Lothian]

No dear friend. You have used inverse and negative analogy in this article, dear friend. Of course, negative analogy is also used in logic. You have closed the proportion to conclude that the contents of the Qur'an are the same. And it does not say anything new. I would like to draw your attention to two points: First, it has stated in the Qur'an what it says that is and exists. But humans did not know. And they did not even realize it. Secondly, after 14 centuries, human beings do not know that there is such a thing in the Qur'an
Later, when Qur'anic scholars examined the verses, they found that the Qur'an had addressed these important scientific discoveries of the twentieth and twenty-first centuries, 14 centuries earlier. In fact, the Qur'an wants to say, O man, go to the pursuit of science and the discovery of the unknown.
.

No it is about your ability to use deductive reasoning and whether you understand what can be concluded and what can not. Why does the Magna Carta not describe an event that would not happen for 8 centuries?
Is the Magna Carta evidence for the supernatural.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

I have answered my friends' questions completely and with a document. Unfortunately, you either do not read the answers to my questions or comment fanatically. I am at your service.
You have not asked any questions about posts 418 and 367, which I have proved through existential philosophy through the method of deductive reasoning logic. Science and perception are not of the nature of matter and nature, and are supernatural. While my article has been about your challenge. You are just asking a lot of different questions that have nothing to do with the subject matter of my article. I know your purpose. And I'm waiting. I advise you to wait for me to tell you the final results. What you seek for the supernatural, you do not achieve with empirical science. Let me tell you how you can feel the supernatural. And grab it. wait.

I just re-read those posts.
Yet more copy-and-paste gibberish. 418, in particular, is a series of questions, and does not prove anything beyond your inability to make your own arguments, or even to copy and paste coherent and valid arguments from elsewhere. 367 makes no sense at all.
No-one here is going to be swayed by this crap. I would wager that no-one anywhere would be swayed by this crap.
And do, please, stop the walls of text and actually answer the many questions put to you. This endless evasiveness just looks dishonest.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

I have strong philosophical reasons for jinns and demons that are of the material kind. And they are not supernatural. Anyone who says these are supernatural and can communicate is lying. These are made of delicate material and can be seen with special tools and technology with material tools. I have no duty to discuss this here. But I know. I also advise you not to seek to discover this issue. Because you get hurt. I like you.

Fine. Here's your chance to prove at least one of your many unevidenced claims.
Kindly post a photo of a djinn, and of a demon. Video would be even better.

 

[Susheel]

Fine. Here's your chance to prove at least one of your many unevidenced claims.
Kindly post a photo of a djinn, and of a demon. Video would be even better.

He has already given himself an "out". He has strong "philosophical reasons". Notice, he did not say material evidence. In translation, it is his opinion that they exist.

 

[Darat]

heydarian is telling us Jinn and Demons are real and have a physical presence
that can be detected with instruments.

So are your Karma angels - they can give you winning lottery numbers, speak to you and so on.

I cannot distinguish between the two from the accounts you both give. Perhaps his djinn are your karma angels and vice-a-versa?

 

[Scorpion]

So are your Karma angels - they can give you winning lottery numbers, speak to you and so on.

I cannot distinguish between the two from the accounts you both give. Perhaps his djinn are your karma angels and vice-a-versa?

Angels are pure spirits that never incarnate. Jinn are non existent Arabian myths incorporated into the Quran.

See the Quran 15.26 Surely we created man of potters clay of black mud altered. 15.27 And the Jinn did we create aforetime of essential fire.

 

[junkshop]

Angels are pure spirits that never incarnate. Jinn are non existent Arabian myths incorporated into the Quran.

Angels are non existent judeo-christian myths incorporated into your personal religion. I'd suggest that you stick to your quranic knowlege to argue against Heydarian's claims, it's much more effective, and less likely to undermine your credibility.

 

[Mojo]

No dear friend. You have used inverse and negative analogy in this article, dear friend. Of course, negative analogy is also used in logic. You have closed the proportion to conclude that the contents of the Qur'an are the same. And it does not say anything new. I would like to draw your attention to two points: First, it has stated in the Qur'an what it says that is and exists. But humans did not know. And they did not even realize it. Secondly, after 14 centuries, human beings do not know that there is such a thing in the Qur'an
Later, when Qur'anic scholars examined the verses, they found that the Qur'an had addressed these important scientific discoveries of the twentieth and twenty-first centuries, 14 centuries earlier. In fact, the Qur'an wants to say, O man, go to the pursuit of science and the discovery of the unknown. To progress.
Later, when Qur'anic scholars examined the verses, they found that the Qur'an had addressed these important scientific discoveries of the twentieth and twenty-first centuries, 14 centuries earlier. In fact, the Qur'an wants to say, O man, go after science and discover the unknown. To progress.
As I said, there are 950 verses about science in the Qur'an. And 44 verses are mentioned for contemplation and 17 verses for contemplation.

Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you?

 

[Scorpion]

Angels are non existent judeo-christian myths incorporated into your personal religion. I'd suggest that you stick to your quranic knowlege to argue against Heydarian's claims, it's much more effective, and less likely to undermine your credibility.

Darat dragged my beliefs into the debate because he is always trying to undermine me, I just answered him.
However it is my beliefs that make me sure the Quran is not from God. because it makes God out to be a sadistic monster.

 

[junkshop]

Fair enough.

 

[sackett]

We've all heard about bats in the belfry. Surely there's such a thing as bats in the minaret.