The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-Opened

[Reformed Offlian]

He says enormous force, not enormous impact.

He also doesn't say it is unaccounted-for, which is another aspect I was questioning.

 

[Axxman300]

The system under Russian trained Captain Andresson was authoritarian. Crew had to get his permission first before they are allowed to do anything. Compare and contrast to the UK Sandhurst Academy leadership skills which encourages leaders to delegate according to priority and urgency task/action. The authoritarian model means crew are loathe to take any initiative of their own and likewise, prone to avoiding having to keep asking for permission to do things for fear of being slapped down as an upstart or undermining the captain.

By all accounts, Andresson was hated and resented by many because of his authoritarian attitude.

So, it seems, on the Estonia the ship's engineering crew worked hard to right the problem before daring to tell the captain, fearing they would be blamed, probably. By the time the alarm was raised it was already too late IMV.

Yes, Russian trained. You know their navy has never been too good, right?

That keen Russian training, the line of thought where the Captain is God, lead to the disaster. Forget the fact Estonia sailed with a list, forget that Estonia sailed at her flank speed to make up for lost time for departing hours late, and forget that this highly Russian-trained captain left his post because his shift was up in spite of a growing list - he never sent a damage control team to physically investigate the report of water coming in at the bow ramp.

Where have we seen this kind of of brilliant Russian leadership before?

Not sure how this defends your point.

 

[Axxman300]

If the car ramp door was in the habit of being leaky, why would the crew show any special concern about it?

Why would a crew member call the bridge if he wasn't concerned?

 

[Axxman300]

Suppose there had been a bomb, a torpedo or a major collision. Do you think a crew could get 850 sleeping passengers to safety within a time frame of about ten minutes?

It is all very well blaming crew but they are not superheroes.

Why not throw in Godzilla too?

They wouldn't have put everyone into life rafts but they could have saved more people for certain.

 

[Axxman300]

Any theory as to who removed the car ramp railings, now seen lying on the seabed?

Poseidon.

 

[JesseCuster]

He also doesn't say it is unaccounted-for, which is another aspect I was questioning.

He also says "The deformations generally match the local geological profile."

That might be important when considering what caused the deformations on the Estonia.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Suppose there had been a bomb, a torpedo or a major collision. Do you think a crew could get 850 sleeping passengers to safety within a time frame of about ten minutes?

It is all very well blaming crew but they are not superheroes.

Where are the ten minutes coming from?

There was no bomb, collision or torpedo.

If the crew had reacted correctly to the water coming in the bow and the noises being made the ship might not have even sunk.

 

[Andy_Ross]

If the car ramp door was in the habit of being leaky, why would the crew show any special concern about it?

Maybe if they had been properly trained they would have shown some concern and kept an eye on it. Any noises or increase in water should have resulted in a response other than pressing on regardless.

 

[Vixen]

Being a theory of "respected persons" does not mean something isn't a conspiracy theory. That fact that someone is a "respected person in office" does not mean that their crackpot ideas are not crackpot ideas.

I never said anything about an "unknown person on the bridge". I did say something about a possible hijacking of the bridge, because you suggested that possibility.

"Unidentified body on the bridge" is not the same as "the bridge was possibly hijacked". You do realise that, right?

Are you saying that the bridge of the Estonia possibly being hijacked is a "reported news item". Where was it reported? Or did you come up with that hypothesis?

A Rockwell diver reported it, as did Andi Meister who was Head of the JAIC before he resigned. The Estonian JAIC members were all qualified marine experts who worked in the industry.

I suppose you believe the poisonings of the former Russian spy and his daughter in Salisbury is a 'conspiracy theory' or the shooting down of a North Korean plane carrying US citizens by the Russians was a 'conspiracy theory' as well?

Or are you waiting for the Daily Mail to report it before you will accept that it is most certainly not?

 

[Vixen]

How could it be deliberate?
You do know how sonar works?

Certainly submarines can block signals. Or if the ROV needs VHF then that, too, is a possibility. When Kari Lehtola, the Finnish JAIC member wanted to conduct radioactivity tests after signing off the report, the first occasion failed because the cable was mysteriously cut .

Jutta Rabe also had this problem with the ROV cables on her boat mysteriously cut.

 

[Vixen]

Plenty of conspiracy theories are reported in the press. They don't stop being conspiracy theories just because someone writes an article about them. If you read the article and subscribe to the conspiracy theory it espouses, you believe and advocate a conspiracy theory. Trying to rewrite it as a "current news event" and not a conspiracy theory mistakes the framing of the story for its essential nature. The mental gymnastics required to try to separate a conspiracy theory in general from a conspiracy theory reported in the media is too much.

Oh for crying out loud. The presence of the sizeable hole in the starboard is now being investigated and the law was changed to make it possible.

This does not happen for a conspiracy theory.

I reported the law being changed to allow for this and a whole bunch of people claiming to be skeptics immediately claimed this news item was a conspiracy fabrication. As if somehow the change in law was a frivolous event and not an historical newsworthy one.

 

[Vixen]

Maybe if they had been properly trained they would have shown some concern and kept an eye on it. Any noises or increase in water should have resulted in a response other than pressing on regardless.

That's only if you believe nothing more happened than the bow visor fell off because of a strong wave and this caused water to enter the car deck.

 

[Vixen]

Where are the ten minutes coming from?

There was no bomb, collision or torpedo.

If the crew had reacted correctly to the water coming in the bow and the noises being made the ship might not have even sunk.

The ten minutes comes from the 137 survivors. The ones who got out within ten minutes of the violent list to starboard.

 

[Vixen]

At the start of the thread his Russian training and experience was touted by you as a positive thing.

Citation please. Only positive in response to your claim that the crew were ill-disciplined. Andresson was a disciplinarian, so not so the crew were unruly.

 

[JayUtah]

Oh for crying out loud.

Indeed. Every time I raise this point you deploy the same straw man.

This does not happen for a conspiracy theory.

All your ideas for how it happened are literal conspiracy theories. That you read them somewhere does not stop them from being that.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Synonyms.

So in the case of a CO² bottle pressurized to 800 psi, the gas within is exerting a constant impact on the inner walls of the vessel. Interesting.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Certainly submarines can block signals. Or if the ROV needs VHF then that, too, is a possibility. When Kari Lehtola, the Finnish JAIC member wanted to conduct radioactivity tests after signing off the report, the first occasion failed because the cable was mysteriously cut .

Jutta Rabe also had this problem with the ROV cables on her boat mysteriously cut.

What cables were cut?
Were they on the boat or under the water?
If it was on the boat then she should know who is on the boat. If it was in the water then it was a diver or another ROV and they would have been visible.

Why would divers need cables to do the radioactivity test?

Sonar uses sound.

 

[Andy_Ross]

That's only if you believe nothing more happened than the bow visor fell off because of a strong wave and this caused water to enter the car deck.

If they were properly trained they should have properly investigated the first loud sounds.
If they were concerned they should have sounded the alarm, started to assemble the passengers and sent a Pan-Pan at a minimum.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The ten minutes comes from the 137 survivors. The ones who got out within ten minutes of the violent list to starboard.

Lots happened before the 'violent list'. Why did the crew not do anything to prepare the passengers?

 

[Metullus]

Certainly submarines can block signals. Or if the ROV needs VHF then that, too, is a possibility. When Kari Lehtola, the Finnish JAIC member wanted to conduct radioactivity tests after signing off the report, the first occasion failed because the cable was mysteriously cut .

Jutta Rabe also had this problem with the ROV cables on her boat mysteriously cut.

How could a submarine block sonar?