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The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-Opened

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Olympic was built as an ocean liner and a warship.

RMS Olympic was used as a war ship in WWI.

'Built as' means something that isn't covered by 'used as'. But you know this.

'My screwdriver was built as a device for tightening/loosening screws and for chipping off stray bits of cement' doesn't become true just because I happen to use it to chip off bits of cement. I might also use it to stir my tea or pick my nose.
 
RMS Olympic was used as a war ship in WWI.

If HMS Hawke had a reinforced 'ram bow': that doesn't necessarily follow RMS Olympic should sink, although it sounds fortuitous to me it didn't, rather than a sign of great strength that the hull wasn't breached.

Olympic was used as a troopship.
It was not a warship.

It shows that even after ramming by a ship with a bow designed for the job and being holed under the waterline it didn't sink.

Estonia has a hole above the waterline that in proportion is far smaller than that of the Olympic yet you claim this hole sank the Estonia very quickly.

All it shows is that every incident is different.
 
It was built for cruises between Sweden and Finland. Correct specifications.


Werft are one of the best in the world.


And yet after more than a decade of pounding by rough seas the bow visor failed and fell off.

You are undermining your own case.
Have you forgotten that just a short time ago the Estonia was, according to you, built to the highest standards by the best German yard?

you want to have your cake and eat it.
 
Perhaps remind me of the point you are making? That Olympic was a sister ship of Titanic but never sank when colliding with things?

You need to state what point you are making and expand on it.

So, 'The point I am making is [...fill in gap...]?

'This is because... [...fill in gap...]?


Just because one ship is rammed by a a cruiser, a submarine, and a lightship and is as right as rain, what does that prove?


The point, which I believe is obvious to everyone else reading this thread, is that you claimed Titanic was "unseaworthy." Therfore, by implication, you also claimed that Olympic was equally unseaworthy. So Captain_Swoop and I would like to know how the "unseaworthy" Olympic was able to survive so long in service, especially considering the three collisions.
 
If the bow visor was loose and the car ramp leaky, how can it have been? Yet the inspectors signed it off as seaworthy and the JAIC said it was seaworthy. The fact that it was only a ferry doesn't mean it can't do the job. However, if hit by a submarine or some kind of explosive, it doesn't augur well does it?

Meyer Werft design ships to customer specifications, so with respect to the Veritas inspectors, the fault would lie with them, if there was a fault?

This is the hill you choose to die on?

There is a long list of ships, planes, trains and building which were in good shape until unanticipated extreme forces lead to their demise. There is an equally long list of ships that sank during a routine crossing. I'm NOT qualified to discuss engineering and ship design, but I know a lot about the ocean. The ocean doesn't play favorites. If there is a loose hatch, porthole, davit, rope, chain, bolt, screw, or bad weld the ocean will find it and punish it until it breaks.

Doesn't matter if the ship was certified seaworthy except in court, and the courts have all agreed on this point though this year. All that mattered is what happened on the night of the disaster. Estonia sank due to a chain of unfortunate events under adverse weather creating the perfect conditions for the disaster.

If you sail a perfectly good ship into a bad storm it is a huge risk. Doesn't matter if the ship can take it or not. The US Navy expends great resources to ensure our warships do sail into storms, but sail around them. Sure, the Estonia had sailed through worse, but I'd love to see the metallurgy of the hood clamps and the bolt mounts to see what age and mileage had done to them.

This was Murphy's Law-101.
 
At the start of the thread the claims about the ship from Vixen were

Meyer Werft of Papenberg are one of the largest and most modern shipbuilders in the world. OK, so they have a conflict of interest in this matter as they are responsible for building the ship. However, they seem fairly adamant the fault was not theirs.

These shipbuilders know their terrain and design their ships accordingly. When the M/S Estonia was known as Wasa King in its third reincarnation with Silja Lines, it was regarded as the most reliable ship in a storm

Bearing in mind that this particular vessel, built to the same or similar specifications to numerous other luxury cruise ro-ros over several decades and actually deemed 'one of the most reliable ships in a storm

quote]It clearly has proven itself as fit for purpose[/quote]
 
Olympic was used as a troopship.
It was not a warship.

It shows that even after ramming by a ship with a bow designed for the job and being holed under the waterline it didn't sink.

Estonia has a hole above the waterline that in proportion is far smaller than that of the Olympic yet you claim this hole sank the Estonia very quickly.

All it shows is that every incident is different.

That's because it went straight back to harbour. Had it not, it may well have sank over the course of a few days.

All reports say the hole is below the waterline (cf Magus Kurm, Henrik Evertsson). It is only detractors here claiming it is not.


Every incident is different but if something is so extraordinary, such as sinking in record time, that factor should be a feature of the investigation, no?
 
Estonia's hole is obviously not below the waterline.

In the case of the Hawke and Olympia, HMS Hawke suffered extensive damage to the bow, the ram and forepeak were destroyed and it requir3ed extensive rebuilding in drydock.

A submarine ramming the Estonia with enough force to breach the hull would also have suffered hull damage. If a sub has hull damage it will not be able to dive. It would have to limp away on the surface.
 
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And yet after more than a decade of pounding by rough seas the bow visor failed and fell off.

You are undermining your own case.
Have you forgotten that just a short time ago the Estonia was, according to you, built to the highest standards by the best German yard?

you want to have your cake and eat it.

Fact is, it has become apparent the crew were used to plugging a leaky car ramp deck with towels and blankets. In one video - shot I believe by Rockwater - you can see a red mattress by it. Plus the crew is said to have had to hammer the bolt on the atlantic lock with a hammer to get it to bolt, together with the mating lugs not aligning properly on the side bolts. So the fact this had become habitual indicates that this doesn't mean it was the cause of the accident.

Even by 29 September 1994, the day after the accident, Swedish Prime Minister Carl Bildt reveals he had spoken to engineer Sillaste who had informed him he thought water was coming in through the sides of the car ramp.

It is a human tragedy beyond belief, and most certainly the worst human disaster that has affected my country for at least a century," Prime Minister Carl Bildt of Sweden said at a news conference here.

The three Prime Ministers declined to discuss what they had been told by investigators, but reports from the ferry's crew members suggested that water may have leaked into the ship, the Estonia, through an unsealed door, destabilizing it and causing autos and other cargo to shift suddenly.

[...]

On Tuesday, just hours before the ferry's fatal journey, Swedish inspectors had found its supposedly watertight seals to be in unsatisfactory condition, a Swedish maritime official said.

"They had opinions on the ramp, mainly that the seal was not in a satisfactory condition," said the official, Anders Lindstrom.

Whether the condition of the seals warranted refusing to allow the ship to put to sea has not been determined, but the condition of the seals is certain to be a major question in the investigation.

One member of the Estonian crew who survived, Henrik Sillaste, reported seeing water flood into the ferry's parking deck.

"On the TV monitor in the machine room, we could see water rushing in on the car deck," Mr. Sillaste said in an interview. "I think the rough seas somehow broke the entrance to the car deck open. We saw that the ramp was not closed properly. There was something wrong. The outer ramp was closed, but the inner door was not properly attached."
New York Times 29.9.1994

So where did Carl Bildt get the information from that the bow visor had fallen off? Nobody reported seeing it fall off. Sillaste was interviewed 28 Sept 1994 by Bildt, Laar and Aho, together with police officers and as confirmed by Laar, Sillaste never mentioned the bow visor was missing or hanging loose. You can see this confirmed at the press conference reported in a newspaper dated 29 September 1994, above, when even Bildt just says it was the car ramp at fault.

Others believe the water seen on the monitor (where Sillaste had seen the car ramp, which was closed, so he can't have seen the condition of the bow visor) was actually that of a fire sprinkler spraying water across the lens.

Nobody saw the bow visor missing. That only came at a much, much later date after several interviews, and the JAIC put this in large after each crew member statement summary 'He saw the bow visor was missing', which I believe was a fabrication and simply done to underline their ready made conclusion as it was based on a tenuous assumption, probably arisen from the already faulty car ramp.


Silver Linde admitted he lied and changed his statements.

He served nine years for drug smuggling - a whopping 13 kilograms of amphetamines (consider how incredibly light tablets are and that gives you an insight into the sheer quantity). In a newspaper interview Linde claimed he had been fitted up and was just being picked on because of his role in the Estonia. He claimed police claims that he had had phone conversations with the truck driver caught transporting the smuggled drugs to ruin Finland's youth were merely about a building project, gypsum and concrete, etcetera, which shows you like many criminals, he is a liar and has no problem at all in telling the hearer whatever he wans to hear, and never admitting fault or responsibility for his own actions.

Yet Silver Linde was JAIC's star witness.

If the Estonia had a faulty car ramp and the bow visor didn't align properly, then the JAIC should have investigated its seaworthiness and maintenance history but never did, claiming the bow visor was to blame for the sudden accident which happened on the stoke of midnight and with the VHF signals jammed for the duration, without ever considering any other explanation.
 
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You list problems with the visor but wonder why the visor was blamed for the sinking?

A short while ago you were claiming it was the best ship in storms and was made by one of the best yards in the world.
Then you switch to saying it was not designed for the job it was doing and there were problems with the visor.

Make your mind up.
 
You list problems with the visor but wonder why the visor was blamed for the sinking?

A short while ago you were claiming it was the best ship in storms and was made by one of the best yards in the world.
Then you switch to saying it was not designed for the job it was doing and there were problems with the visor.

Make your mind up.

Citation please of where I claimed it was the best ship in storms?

There were obvious maintenance issues and seaworthiness issues yet the JAIC never looked at this aspect, describing the ship as properly loaded and lashed for the weather conditions and seaworthy. Full stop. Period. End of.
 
This is the hill you choose to die on?

There is a long list of ships, planes, trains and building which were in good shape until unanticipated extreme forces lead to their demise. There is an equally long list of ships that sank during a routine crossing. I'm NOT qualified to discuss engineering and ship design, but I know a lot about the ocean. The ocean doesn't play favorites. If there is a loose hatch, porthole, davit, rope, chain, bolt, screw, or bad weld the ocean will find it and punish it until it breaks.

Doesn't matter if the ship was certified seaworthy except in court, and the courts have all agreed on this point though this year. All that mattered is what happened on the night of the disaster. Estonia sank due to a chain of unfortunate events under adverse weather creating the perfect conditions for the disaster.

If you sail a perfectly good ship into a bad storm it is a huge risk. Doesn't matter if the ship can take it or not. The US Navy expends great resources to ensure our warships do sail into storms, but sail around them. Sure, the Estonia had sailed through worse, but I'd love to see the metallurgy of the hood clamps and the bolt mounts to see what age and mileage had done to them.

This was Murphy's Law-101.

It was not a 'bad storm'. It was a storm typical for late September. It was a Beaufort Scale 7. In the wikipedia, it is confirmed the storm was not particularly bad, with both Silja and Viking Lines running ships from Helsinki to Stockholm. Quite frankly, had it been a simple case of the car deck leaking, that would have become apparent within minutes of setting off and with time for the ship to turn back or move it into shallow ground, as the Captain of the Maru did.

Fact is, this 'bow visor falling off' which nobody saw falling off (the JAIC get around this by saying it wasn't visible from the bridge. However, it had a blue light which was visible). How do you know the visor falling off was Event Number One? Or that it happened before the ship sank? 29 of the 137 survivors describe hearing an explosion (two or three of them in succession) and/or a collision that knocked them off their feet/out of bed. And how would Carl Bildt know it was the visor what done it on Day One 28 Sept 1994? Sillaste is reported as saying it was closed over the car ramp, not missing.

And it's 'Murphy's Law' the explosions, crash and sudden violent list to starboard were on the stroke of midnight and bang on the middle of its voyage in international waters, where any submarine can roam?
 
It was not a 'bad storm'. It was a storm typical for late September. It was a Beaufort Scale 7. In the wikipedia, it is confirmed the storm was not particularly bad, with both Silja and Viking Lines running ships from Helsinki to Stockholm. Quite frankly, had it been a simple case of the car deck leaking, that would have become apparent within minutes of setting off and with time for the ship to turn back or move it into shallow ground, as the Captain of the Maru did.

Fact is, this 'bow visor falling off' which nobody saw falling off (the JAIC get around this by saying it wasn't visible from the bridge. However, it had a blue light which was visible). How do you know the visor falling off was Event Number One? Or that it happened before the ship sank? 29 of the 137 survivors describe hearing an explosion (two or three of them in succession) and/or a collision that knocked them off their feet/out of bed. And how would Carl Bildt know it was the visor what done it on Day One 28 Sept 1994? Sillaste is reported as saying it was closed over the car ramp, not missing.

And it's 'Murphy's Law' the explosions, crash and sudden violent list to starboard were on the stroke of midnight and bang on the middle of its voyage in international waters, where any submarine can roam?

Give up. The contortions are becoming painful to watch.
 
Give up. The contortions are becoming painful to watch.

Care to list the 'contortions'? Perhaps explain why the three countries to the treaty have agreed to review the wreck?


Perhaps you need to contact Rene Arikas in charge of the new expedition to let him know of your disapproval.

Or maybe you feel it is an affront to the victims' relatives to expect to want to understand what happened to their loved ones. When a relative dies you get a death certificate explaining why and if a sudden death, likely an inquest with a detailed account of how the death happened. But oh no, the victims of the Estonia don't even deserve this elementary dignity because other people prefer a sugar-coated pill instead and claim that their version is the proper comfortable one and any real summary of the facts should be brushed aside.

So you are demanding this thread should cease on your say so...[...because?...].
 
Citation please of where I claimed it was the best ship in storms?

There were obvious maintenance issues and seaworthiness issues yet the JAIC never looked at this aspect, describing the ship as properly loaded and lashed for the weather conditions and seaworthy. Full stop. Period. End of.

Here you go

These shipbuilders know their terrain and design their ships accordingly. When the M/S Estonia was known as Wasa King in its third reincarnation with Silja Lines, it was regarded as the most reliable ship in a storm

Bearing in mind that this particular vessel, built to the same or similar specifications to numerous other luxury cruise ro-ros over several decades and actually deemed 'one of the most reliable ships in a storm
 
You also previously said

Ramming by a submarine whether Russian or Swedish is a tall story which I haven't seen perpetuated here, except as a troll

and

I don't believe the Estonia was "struck by another vessel or was blown up in some way".
 
Here you go

You will of course note the weasel words "was regarded as", and "deemed". Vixen is very careful to constantly use such words in order to deny any positive claims when they are quoted. A sure sign of an experienced CTist. Probably one who does not actually believe their own CT but merely gets enjoyment out of how clever they mistakenly think they are being.
 
Here you go

Would you mind providing the full context of these quotes and not paragraphs cut in half? Together with what I was replying to?


Indeed the Cruise Ferry Ro-Ro-s between Finland - Sweden and Finland - Estonia are designed to withstand heavy Baltic weather, including frozen ice. That doesn't mean you can plonk it in the middle of the North Atlantic for a six week voyage.
 
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