[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[Aber]

How many clients of this shelter are asking for this?

While preparing to write this piece, I turned to social media to ask for survivors of sexual violence in Scotland to get in touch. Within minutes I had deleted my tweet because I was overwhelmed; women in direct messages and emails wanted to tell me their stories, to share with me why it mattered to have women-only spaces. Their experiences differed in the detail, but the fear they expressed was the same. These women, survivors of male sexual violence, told me they felt betrayed by RCS; they were angry at being made to feel powerless once again, this time by the very organisation charged with their protection. The most bitter blow for some was how the paid professional feminist class had tried to recast themselves as the victims.

https://thecritic.co.uk/reframe-your-trauma/

 

[TurkeysGhost]

https://thecritic.co.uk/reframe-your-trauma/

Well that's something, though someone soliciting confirming opinions for their opinion piece isn't even close to a representative survey.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were significant opinions like this from any pool of people using the shelter, given the abundance of anti-trans animus in the UK generally.

 

[cullennz]

With womens shelters it is a toughy

I don't think it is unreasonable for:

Any biological females to not have to deal with non biological females while there under any circunstances, bar only someone else who needs to save their **** or they would die.

With trans females she is a toughy as I would just say different area of the same place, but appreciate this may not be possible with infastucture.

How many trans actually use them might help.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

With womens shelters it is a toughy

I don't think it is unreasonable for:

Any biological females to not have to deal with non biological females while there under any circunstances, bar only someone else who needs to save their **** or they would die.

With trans females she is a toughy as I would just say different area of the same place, but appreciate this may not be possible with infastucture.

How many trans actually use them might help.

It seems a huge leap to assume every client of such a shelter would share the same aversion to trans women.

I have no issue that the individual desires of clients be catered to as much as possible, even in cases where that shades into what, in other circumstances, would be unlawful discrimination. If, for example, some woman refused to be seen by non-white staff based on the nature of the trauma or whatever, then I suppose some effort should be made to meet that need. Likewise if a woman refuses to be tended to by trans staff.

I don't see how the fact that some clients will have certain prejudices or particular requests is grounds for sweeping and illegally discriminatory hiring practices. There's a huge difference between catering to individuals on a case-by-case approach and universalizing anti-trans discrimination as a policy, which is almost always what the TERFs and other transphobes are demanding.

 

[Olmstead]

It seems a huge leap to assume every client of such a shelter would share the same aversion to trans women.

I have no issue that the individual desires of clients be catered to as much as possible, even in cases where that shades into what, in other circumstances, would be unlawful discrimination. If, for example, some woman refused to be seen by non-white staff based on the nature of the trauma or whatever, then I suppose some effort should be made to meet that need. Likewise if a woman refuses to be tended to by trans staff.

I don't see how the fact that some clients will have certain prejudices or particular requests is grounds for sweeping and illegally discriminatory hiring practices. There's a huge difference between catering to individuals on a case-by-case approach and universalizing anti-trans discrimination as a policy, which is almost always what the TERFs and other transphobes are demanding.

So why are men barred? It makes no sense. What makes men the special kind of evil that is somehow different?

 

[cullennz]

It seems a huge leap to assume every client of such a shelter would share the same aversion to trans women.

I have no issue that the individual desires of clients be catered to as much as possible, even in cases where that shades into what, in other circumstances, would be unlawful discrimination. If, for example, some woman refused to be seen by non-white staff based on the nature of the trauma or whatever, then I suppose some effort should be made to meet that need. Likewise if a woman refuses to be tended to by trans staff.

I don't see how the fact that some clients will have certain prejudices or particular requests is grounds for sweeping and illegally discriminatory hiring practices. There's a huge difference between catering to individuals on a case-by-case approach and universalizing anti-trans discrimination as a policy, which is almost always what the TERFs and other transphobes are demanding.

You are (I think purposefully) confusing prejudice with fear in some of the most vulnerable times in a biological womans lifetime mentally who may have been subjected to who knows what through no choice of their own , for the sake of a biological male who individually chose to turn into a woman beause they felt the wrong internal gender.

Sorry mate. and feel free to just call me a terf, but to me at least bio chick always wins

 

[TurkeysGhost]

You are (I think purposefully) confusing prejudice with fear in some of the most vulnerable times in a biological womans lifetime mentally who may have been subjected to who knows what through no choice of their own , for the sake of a biological male who individually chose to turn into a woman beause they felt the wrong internal gender.

Sorry mate. and feel free to just call me a terf, but to me at least bio chick always wins

How many women are fearful of trans women to the same extent they are fearful of men in these contexts?

 

[cullennz]

How many women are fearful of trans women to the same extent they are fearful of men in these contexts?

I have no idea.

But my personal gauge would be there would be more bio females having their faces punched in by by people with dicks in most societies, than biological males who have chosen to become women by gender outwardwardly and they got hit.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I have no idea.



But my personal gauge would be there would be more bio females having their faces punched in by by people with dicks in most societies, than biological males who have chosen to become women by gender outwardwardly and they got hit.

Seems like something that would be pretty important to know to justify a universal ban of trans women

 

[cullennz]

Actually that didn't really answer your question.

How many women would women would be fearful of trans women in that position?

Again I don't know.

No one knows.

But I personally feel one or more would be too many. Sorry

It is what I truely think, and as much as you probably will go transhobe! over it. It is just the way it is with shelters and trans people can do wtf they want apart from that

 

[JoeMorgue]

The argument can't be "They matter because they aren't enough of them to matter."

 

[cullennz]

Seems like something that would be pretty important to know to justify a universal ban of trans women

You do realise you actually have to think about both sides in the arguments mental state and not just one?

 

[cullennz]

Actually scratch that. I am guessing mediation of issues is not your thing

 

[TurkeysGhost]

You do realise you actually have to think about both sides in the arguments mental state and not just one?

Sure. Consider that what is routinely being asked is that trans women be denied staffing and leadership roles in these clinics, and often further that trans women, who face relatively high rates of domestic and sexual violence, be denied access to crisis care.

We know that what is being asked for by the anti trans side will incur tremendous damage.

Is there truly no accomodations short of an outright refusal to serve trans women? Or is this demand motivated primarily by animus?

 

[d4m10n]

Is there truly no accomodations short of an outright refusal to serve trans women?

One obvious solution would be to have different shelters with different policies designed to serve different clients. I get the sense you'd prefer to outlaw single-sex accommodations, though.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

One obvious solution would be to have different shelters with different policies designed to serve different clients. I get the sense you'd prefer to outlaw single-sex accommodations, though.

In theory, I don't find this objectionable. The track record of appeasing prejudice with "separate but equal" does not inspire confidence.

 

[Aber]

I don't see how the fact that some clients will have certain prejudices or particular requests is grounds for sweeping and illegally discriminatory hiring practices. There's a huge difference between catering to individuals on a case-by-case approach and universalizing anti-trans discrimination as a policy, which is almost always what the TERFs and other transphobes are demanding.

In the UK there is a legal exemption for single sex services, so there is NO illegal discrimination going on.

 

[theprestige]

Seems like something that would be pretty important to know to justify a universal ban of trans women

Nobody's calling for a universal ban of trans women from women's shelters. We're calling for a universal permit for individual shelters to make their own decisions about whether and how to shelter transsexuals.

As long as you're not calling for a universal mandate that shelters accept transwomen, we're all on the same page. No TERFs or transphobes in sight.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I saw and discarded the pun, amusing as it is. I read the rest of it in the context of a female rape victim being uncomfortable about sheltering with a male rape victim, on account of their maleness.

I honestly don't think rape shelter caregivers should be talking about how transwomen make them uncomfortable. Unless perhaps it's a women for women shelter, and some of the caregivers are there precisely because they're uncomfortable around and chose this work because it allows them to work exclusively with women.

None of that was the context though. The context was female rape victims being uncomfortable around males of any sort, including their caregivers. Furthermore, it's not caregivers expressing that transwomen make them uncomfortable - it's female rape victims expressing that male-appearing people make them uncomfortable regardless of how they identify in the inside of their minds.

It's transgender caregivers complaining that female rape victims make the transgender caregiver uncomfortable by not wanting to be cared for by a male person.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I guarantee that if I ever find myself facing federal prison time my long repressed female gender identity will be front and center.

You're the nineteen-millionth male I've heard express this sentiment. Okay, maybe an exaggeration. But nearly every single adult male I've talked to about this has expressed that if they were to find themselves in prison, they'd want to identify as a woman and be moved to the female ward. I've even heard several females express that sentiment with respect to their male spouses and children. Given the option, that's the rational thing to do.

This is a pretty clear acknowledgement that in general, males are more dangerous and more prone to violence than are females.

And of course, everyone believes that they themselves, or their male relatives and loved ones, are the 'good ones' who would never present a danger to a female. Most of them are probably right. Most males aren't a danger. But enough are that as a group, males are dangerous. Males are dangerous to other males. And males are even *more* dangerous to females.

The problem is that allowing 'good males' to self-identify their way out of the dangerous male ward, and into the safe female ward... it also explicitly allows the 'bad males' to do the same thing. All it accomplishes is a shifting of the burden of violence onto female people who are smaller, weaker, and more vulnerable.

It is absolutely in the best interest of males to find a way to get the system to place them in the female ward. It's in the interest of both 'good males' and 'bad males' to do so.

But it is definitely not in the interest of females to allow this to happen. It incontrovertibly places females at increased risk and danger, reduces their dignity and humanity, and violates their boundaries and consent.

TL;DR...

Males: This is good for me personally.
Females: This is terrifying and dangerous to the mental and physical well-being of myself and every other female in this position.