Cont: Trump’s Coup - Part 2

[Lurch]

I find it interesting how so many folk look to politicians to save them. For instance, many Liberals are counting on their representatives to prevail against the authoritarian right. But really, it comes down to the people themselves. As ol' Ben famously put it, "A republic, if you can keep it." The Dems (with that sensible fraction of the non-affiliated) is the majority. But if their desire to maintain a democracy is eclipsed by the fervor of the Right to smash it, they could be having to do some new saluting all too soon.

A people always gets the government it deserves.

 

[Stacyhs]

I find it interesting how so many folk look to politicians to save them. For instance, many Liberals are counting on their representatives to prevail against the authoritarian right. But really, it comes down to the people themselves. As ol' Ben famously put it, "A republic, if you can keep it." The Dems (with that sensible fraction of the non-affiliated) is the majority. But if their desire to maintain a democracy is eclipsed by the fervor of the Right to smash it, they could be having to do some new saluting all too soon.

A people always gets the government it deserves.

So what do you suggest 'the people' do other than vote for representatives in government that they think will uphold their values? Should we have attempted a coup during Trump's administration when he was acquitted in the first impeachment trial? I suppose we could have armed ourselves and stormed the White House.

 

[Lurch]

So what do you suggest 'the people' do other than vote for representatives in government that they think will uphold their values? Should we have attempted a coup during Trump's administration when he was acquitted in the first impeachment trial? I suppose we could have armed ourselves and stormed the White House.

How about huge, organized marches? Large scale strikes? You know, a little more than tut-tutting via thumbs on a screen.

 

[dudalb]

How about huge, organized marches? Large scale strikes? You know, a little more than tut-tutting via thumbs on a screen.

Would those tactics work in 2022?
This ain't the 1960's you know.

 

[Stacyhs]

How about huge, organized marches? Large scale strikes? You know, a little more than tut-tutting via thumbs on a screen.

LOL. You think marching in protest would stop the Republicans? That's naive. What kind of 'strikes' would you recommend? All the Dems walking out while the Republicans in whatever company, etc participates refuse to strike?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

There was a Plan, and Giuliani spelled it out: prevent the Certification on Jan 6th.
Use the break in precedent as leverage to have more court cases to delay further.

And Trump spelled it out in this rally speech that they should "stop the steal".

Plenty of Trump Plans had less strategy behind them,.

 

[gnome]

For one, local politics. Getting ethical people into the important roles revealed by the 2020 election process. There was a lot of unseen work done to preserve the integrity and credibility of the election to the extent that allowed it to stand up to the massive assault placed upon it. That needs reinforcement and that means local involvement.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[JoeMorgue]

For one, local politics. Getting ethical people into the important roles revealed by the 2020 election process. There was a lot of unseen work done to preserve the integrity and credibility of the election to the extent that allowed it to stand up to the massive assault placed upon it. That needs reinforcement and that means local involvement.

Definitely more of a focus on state level.

We talk about the majorities in the House and majorities in the Senate and the Presidency and seats on SCOTUS and those are all, obviously, important but the biggest losses the Democrats have suffered are at state level.

The Democrats have been bleeding out state level power for years now* and I think it's a much bigger deal then we realize. It's those state level legislatures that are doing the Gerrymandering and approving those voter suppression laws.

"Voting" as a process has its rules at a state level almost universally. You can a lot of damage at that level by just screwing with the process, as history is now showing us.

And I think "state level" just doesn't fit into Democrat's mentality as easily as Federal (where all the big sweeping social changes they want happen) and Local (where their "grassroots" fetish can be satisfied) but they are letting a very vulnerable place of political power be left be unprotected. And "States Rights" and "State Identity" are a much bigger deal to Republicans, so they are already have an advantage.

https://web.education.wisc.edu/nwhi...y-control-in-congress-and-state-legislatures/

 

[Stacyhs]

For one, local politics. Getting ethical people into the important roles revealed by the 2020 election process. There was a lot of unseen work done to preserve the integrity and credibility of the election to the extent that allowed it to stand up to the massive assault placed upon it. That needs reinforcement and that means local involvement.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Agreed. Which is why I wrote:

So what do you suggest 'the people' do other than vote for representatives in government that they think will uphold their values?

So far I've received one reply that suggested strikes (unfeasible) and protests (which Republicans will ignore), 2 suggestions that only elected reps can do, and your suggestion of getting involved in preserving the integrity of our elections which, at last, is an actual thing local people can do by volunteering to be poll watchers, etc. But it still involves getting reps elected that uphold their values.

 

[dudalb]

LOL. You think marching in protest would stop the Republicans? That's naive. What kind of 'strikes' would you recommend? All the Dems walking out while the Republicans in whatever company, etc participates refuse to strike?

But marching a really even if it does nothing to actually help your cause makes you feel so good.
Biggest problem with a lot of people on the left is they are stuck in the 1960's;not getting what worked then might not work now.

 

[dudalb]

There was a Plan, and Giuliani spelled it out: prevent the Certification on Jan 6th.
Use the break in precedent as leverage to have more court cases to delay further.

And Trump spelled it out in this rally speech that they should "stop the steal".

Plenty of Trump Plans had less strategy behind them,.

OH, there was a plan, but it was a stupid one.
Even if they had taken over the capitol the congress on a more permanent basis, it would have met elsewhere.
Unless they would have caputured most of the congresspeople, in which we would probably be in a upheavel and level of violence that would not be much different then a civil war.

 

[Stacyhs]

But marching a really even if it does nothing to actually help your cause makes you feel so good.
Biggest problem with a lot of people on the left is they are stuck in the 1960's;not getting what worked then might not work now.

Yep, all that protest marching after the 2016 election sure did a hell of a lot!

 

[Ladewig]

I find it interesting how so many folk look to politicians to save them. For instance, many Liberals are counting on their representatives to prevail against the authoritarian right. But really, it comes down to the people themselves. As ol' Ben famously put it, "A republic, if you can keep it." The Dems (with that sensible fraction of the non-affiliated) is the majority. But if their desire to maintain a democracy is eclipsed by the fervor of the Right to smash it, they could be having to do some new saluting all too soon.

A people always gets the government it deserves.

The North Koreans deserve Kim Jong Un?
The Cubans deserved Castro?
The Russians deserved Stalin?

 

[Lurch]

The North Koreans deserve Kim Jong Un?
The Cubans deserved Castro?
The Russians deserved Stalin?

Yes. If the People are inattentive, acquiescent, hoodwinked or tentatively supportive while these despots were consolidating their power, they effectively allowed what happened. A government generally comes from the people; it's not beamed in, ready made. It's up to a People to chart their destiny.

Ben Franklin's admonition, "A Republic, if you can keep it," is based on this recognition. Today's political mess would be among the scenarios he'd have had in mind with that quip.

 

[Stacyhs]

Yes. If the People are inattentive, acquiescent, hoodwinked or tentatively supportive while these despots were consolidating their power, they effectively allowed what happened. A government generally comes from the people; it's not beamed in, ready made. It's up to a People to chart their destiny.

Ben Franklin's admonition, "A Republic, if you can keep it," is based on this recognition. Today's political mess would be among the scenarios he'd have had in mind with that quip.

Ahem...the majority of Americans did not vote for Trump. The only people who 'deserve' Trump are those who voted for him in 2016 and those who continue to support him. I do not.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Ahem...the majority of Americans did not vote for Trump. The only people who 'deserve' Trump are those who voted for him in 2016 and those who continue to support him. I do not.

Twice!

 

[Lurch]

To add to my previous post, to augment the point.

The US absolutely deserved Trump as President. Because of the established political system, and the inattentiveness of the majority.

If Trump were to win the White House in '24, again the US would absolutely deserve him. No matter how he 'won'. That includes outright cheating, such as states nullifying ballots. The People as a whole must muster the will to combat the schemes to install a despot. If it cannot, then it must live with that failure.

 

[Stacyhs]

To add to my previous post, to augment the point.

The US absolutely deserved Trump as President. Because of the established political system, and the inattentiveness of the majority.

If Trump were to win the White House in '24, again the US would absolutely deserve him. No matter how he 'won'. That includes outright cheating, such as states nullifying ballots. The People as a whole must muster the will to combat the schemes to install a despot. If it cannot, then it must live with that failure.

Bull. The majority cannot do anything about the electoral college because of the way the Constitution sets it up and how it keeps a majority of people from changing it by amendment.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yep, all that protest marching after the 2016 election sure did a hell of a lot!

I'm going to have to disagree with this. It may very well be that the women's marches all over the world the day after the election didn't have an immediate effect, and later the GOP Dump cultists kept Dump from impeachment. But that doesn't mean it had no effect. It set the stage for the Dump presidency and he didn't get reelected cultists or not. In addition the cultists are slowly but surely shrinking in numbers.

Granted who knows what proportion of the Dump backlash can be attributed to what. But I thought the worldwide women's march had an impact around the world.

Sometimes things look like 2 steps forward (in this case for women) and one step back. But the women's marches after Dump was elected put the world on notice, women have taken 2 steps forward.

 

[dirtywick]

To add to my previous post, to augment the point.

The US absolutely deserved Trump as President. Because of the established political system, and the inattentiveness of the majority.

If Trump were to win the White House in '24, again the US would absolutely deserve him. No matter how he 'won'. That includes outright cheating, such as states nullifying ballots. The People as a whole must muster the will to combat the schemes to install a despot. If it cannot, then it must live with that failure.

I think it's such a weirdly empty point.

Of course everyone will have to live with what happens. That's true of every single thing that's ever happened. And everything that will happen after those things.