Cont: Rioters storm and occupy the US Capitol - part 2

[JoeMorgue]

And this is why I've developed such a "You are what you do, period" view of morality, because of constant death-spiral trolling conversations about "No but you see in their heart of hearts I was..."

 

[Thermal]

Frankly, I don't know what you are talking about.

My viewpoint hasn't changed. In fact, I am pretty amazed by the resistance to it. In many of the other sub-forums, people seem to deal with things in a much less emotionally-driven manner, tbh.

But hey, it's "Social Issues", so that is to be expected. Anyway, I'm done with this particular debate.

Do I understand you correctly that you were prompting a parallel discussion about the abstraction raised, while not directly opining on the specifics at hand?

If so, these cats really, really hate that.

 

[Belz...]

Do I understand you correctly that you were prompting a parallel discussion about the abstraction raised, while not directly opining on the specifics at hand?

If so, these cats really, really hate that.

No, what Warp12 did is say that what they did was commendable, in a way, and when he saw that that didn't sell well, tried to backtrack. Yeah, rhetorical tricks and dishonesty, I tend to dislike.

 

[ponderingturtle]

And this is why I've developed such a "You are what you do, period" view of morality, because of constant death-spiral trolling conversations about "No but you see in their heart of hearts I was..."

Exactly, in their own minds the Nazis were heroically saving the world from the Jewish threat. They showed the courage of their convictions in messing up their own war effort to exterminate more Jews.

 

[carlitos]

And this is why I've developed such a "You are what you do, period" view of morality, because of constant death-spiral trolling conversations about "No but you see in their heart of hearts I was..."

By their fruits, ye shall know them.

 

[Thermal]

No, what Warp12 did is say that what they did was commendable, in a way, and when he saw that that didn't sell well, tried to backtrack. Yeah, rhetorical tricks and dishonesty, I tend to dislike.

That's fair. But as someone who also finds that going off on an abstract tangent is met as if it was covering a veiled agenda, I sympathise a bit. I get stuck in that quagmire pretty often.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Why can't people understand the difference between:

1) Commending someone for taking action for a seemingly noble cause
(I am not getting into the cause debate any further; it has been well covered)

And

2) Commending someone for their specific actions

It seems very simple, but I am done repeating it.

Because 1 is moronic.

ETA: That is to say, you can't take these things out of their context because that renders the action utterly meaningless. I'm sure I could find a hypothetical scenario where raping a woman would be considered a commendable action. That should not ever be used as a get out for a rapist on trial.

You cannot take real life actions out of their context. To do so is idiotic.

Unless of course you are looking to pull a motte and bailey dog whistle style argument of course.

ETA 2: In fact I need not find a hypothetical in which it is a moral good. I can just say that the rapist thought he as saving his victim from demonic possession with his penis. According to you if he really believed that was the case he should be commended for taking action to save the possessed even if you don't agree with his methods.

 

[catsmate]

*Rubs the bridge of my nose* I have a headache.

Your earlier post was completely correct; certain people only care about "Free Speech" when the speech supposedly being threatened is that of fascists and authoritarians.

 

[catsmate]

Okay can we just all agree that "in their minds" was a massive and loaded weasel phrase, pretend that Warp12 found some way to pretend to save face, and move on?

Or just killfile him...

 

[JoeMorgue]

Your earlier post was completely correct; certain people only care about "Free Speech" when the speech supposedly being threatened is that of fascists and authoritarians.

Oh yeah that's obvious. For years on the both this board and general broader life telling a Nazi to shutup (or talking about same) was the single most surefire way to get the maximum number of "Oh I just love free speech, have I told you how much I love free speech, I scream free speech everytime I climax" types to crawl out of the woodworks.

I'll never love a woman like free speech advocates love Nazis.

 

[Dave Rogers]

They only have the courage of other people's convictions.

That they have. And the more convictions the better.

Dave

 

[smartcooky]

And another five morons make the total 550

https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-arrests-charges-names-2021-1

Alan Byerly PA
Assault on a federal officer;
Obstruction of law enforcement during civil disorder;
Knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority and engaging in physical violence;
Violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds;
Assault

Prosecutors allege that Byerly brought a taser to the Capitol riots and assaulted a journalist from the Associated Press.
Kenneth Reda FL
Knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority
Disorderly or disruptive conduct in a restricted building or grounds
Disorderly or disruptive conduct on Capitol grounds
Parading, demonstrating or picketing in a Capitol building.

David Moerschel FL
Conspiracy;
Obstruction of justice/Congress;
Unlawful entry into restricted buildings or grounds

Prosecutors allege Moerschel is a member of the Oath Keepers. Surveillance footage from an Arlington, Virginia hotel hallway on January 7 shows Moerschel entering an elevator with a "long gun case."*

Trevor Brown MI
Obstruction of law enforcement during civil disorder;
Knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority;
Disorderly and disruptive conduct in a restricted building or grounds;
Violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds;
Parading, demonstrating or picketing in a Capitol building

Jonathan Laurens GA
Knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority
Disorderly and disruptive conduct in a restricted building or grounds;
Entering and remaining on the floor of Congress
Disorderly conduct in a Capitol building
Parading, demonstrating, or picketing in a Capitol building


*The third guy down on the list, Moerchel, is probably one of the unnamed "Persons" in the Oath Keepers conspiracy indictment, probably PERSON THREE. I base that assessment on the fact that one of the named indicted people, Kelly Meggs paid for two rooms, each for two people, at the Comfort Inn, Ballston (which is in Arlington VA) from January 5-6, 2021. The rooms were reserved under the name of PERSON THREE.

It seems increasingly likely that these Oath Keepers brought a large cache of firearms and other weapons to DC, and that this guy was part of the Quick Reaction Force the FBI talked about in that indictment.

If I were to guess, I would say that the pipe bombs planted at the RNC and DNC headquarters were planted by a member of the Oath Keepers, and were going to be used as a diversion for the deployment of their QRF to take the Capitol using firearms, and to start killing Representatives and Senators.
And yes, I have little doubt that these Oath Keepers would have killed people.

 

[dudalb]

I have to repeat that joke:

MAGA:
Many
Are
Getting
Arrested.

 

[dudalb]

Donnie is now buying into the "Poor innocent Tourist shot by the big bad police" storyline.

 

[dudalb]

From what I've learned over the years, Ludendorf was probably more responsible for WWII than even Hitler. He's essentially to blame for that myth.

I have had some fun explaining to DC comic book fans how the real Ludendorf was even worse then the villianous guy in "Wonder Women".

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Donnie is now buying into the "Poor innocent Tourist shot by the big bad police" storyline.

It's no doubt a bad omen for things to come, but I get some enjoyment in knowing that many people believe that this CHUD got shot dead by the cops in a case of gross misjustice.

The only thing funnier than a fascist getting clapped is the idea that they didn't deserve it. Let the salt flow.

But yeah, the idea that large portions of the population are glorifying a fascist martyr is a bad sign.

 

[dudalb]

There's no reason that they were doing "the right thing" in their minds. But if that belief was unreasonable, then their actions cannot be called commendable.

I have to disagree. History is full of people doing evil things in the full conviction they were doing the right thing. I give you the Nazis and an example. They were convinced they were saving the world from an evil Jewish conspiracy.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Donnie is now buying into the "Poor innocent Tourist shot by the big bad police" storyline.

Yes and how dare they not release the name of this murderer.

 

[Belz...]

I have had some fun explaining to DC comic book fans how the real Ludendorf was even worse then the villianous guy in "Wonder Women".

Only slightly less cartoonish, however.

I have to disagree. History is full of people doing evil things in the full conviction they were doing the right thing. I give you the Nazis and an example. They were convinced they were saving the world from an evil Jewish conspiracy.

My mistake. I wanted to type "no question", not "no reason".

 

[mgidm86]

In their minds, they were trying thwart an attempt to formalize fraudulent election results. Thus, they would be preventing the installation of an illegitimate regime.

One should make sure they have all the facts before attempting to overthrow a government. That they did not is 100% on them. Good intentions and all that.