And even that is often more effort than is necessary. Pretty much 100% of my trades these days are done via letters of credit (i.e., credit cards). Nobody in my "transaction cloud" bothers with physical currency anymore. My employer does credit transfers from their bank account to mine. I draw on a line of credit to make all my purchases. I do credit transfers from my bank to my creditor to pay back the money they've loaned me to trade with.
(And really all a debit card is is a letter of credit for your own personal credit line, rather than someone else's.)
True, much of the time I will use a credit card, though one of those credit cards still has a bill that I pay with a check every month. Any way, though, it's simple and quick and saves me the uncountable steps that would be required to do it without being at the end of a long trail of money transactions.
OP, I'm pretty sure you're a lot of fun at parties. Stop around my place this weekend through next. But I think posters are looking for coherency on the forum. Its kind of their hangup.
That's because you're trying to understand something written by someone who hasn't figured out the idea of more or less time and effort and how that relates to the use or non-use of language; he's mistaking a glut of words for a wealth of meaning.
I am reminded of Ambrose Bierce's definition of "pleonasm," (a word we should see more often, by the way) as "An army of words escorting a corporal of thought."
• Something else than what humans can imagine has been happening around humans up to now since the beginning of humans, regardless the fact that most humans don’t get that…
• or else before humans, what does it seem to you was happening in reality?..
• Something that happened before humans, but that Humans imaginEd afteR they startEd GETting REAL?!.
Alex - first question ; do you realise that what you write does not make much sense to anyone? Your words are not making any clear logical sense in the English language ... do you understand that?
Second question - are you asking about what was happening on this planet before humans ever lived? Or to be clearer you may want to ask what was happening before any of our direct ape ancestors ever lived.
Another part of that second question - do you believe that before humans and our direct ape ancestors ever lived, which would be about 5 million years ago and earlier (IIRC), do you believe that what was really happening on Earth was nothing at all like the picture which science has created for us from studying things like geology, palaeontology, pre-human evolution, or even astronomy and cosmology to determine what happened to form planets like the Earth in the first place?
Is that what you are asking about? I.e. asking how we can know what happened on Earth (or anywhere in space) before the first humans ever lived?
I am reminded of Ambrose Bierce's definition of "pleonasm," (a word we should see more often, by the way) as "An army of words escorting a corporal of thought."
I'm still betting on brain damage, myself. It's not just its being a word salad, but also that those jumbled sentences don't even seem to be connected in anything resembling a logical argument. There is nothing resembling a coherent "x AND y THEREFORE z" kind of structure, even if you might not understand the phrasing of x, y, and z. Like, say, if you read Jabberwocky, you can get the idea that it's following a certain narrative and style, even if you have no idea what "the slythy toves" are, or what does it mean that they "did gyre and gymble in the wabe." In Alex's case it's hard to see any coherent structure, much less one that resembles a logical argument. He seems to be throwing some random stuff around, and then skip to the dumb browbeating part where he reminds us that "people can watch" if we post disagreeing with him. Never mind that he hasn't even made it clear exactly what we'd be disagreeing with, nor does it even seem structured to give anyone any coherent reason to agree.
• Something else than what humans can imagine has been happening around humans up to now since the beginning of humans, regardless the fact that most humans don’t get that…
• or else before humans, what does it seem to you was happening in reality?..
• Something that happened before humans, but that Humans imaginEd afteR they startEd GETting REAL?!.
We are doing the following thought experiment in the steps described below (with some instructions as well).
1.Imagine that you do something,
instructions 1: feel free to imagine, following the steps and instructions below from beggining until the end.
2.You do this something that you imagine in two different ways from its beginning until its end
instructions 2: you can come back to me with two stories, each with a beginning and and end, about something done in two different ways from its beginning until its end.
3.First you do it with money from its beginning until its end
instructions 3:
Trade is happening in the first story with money.
Clarifications...
This means that, either you do something for another, and another gives the agreed amount of money to you,
or another does something for you, and you give another the agreed amount of money to another...and the agreed amount of money...
is the amount of money you and another...agreed in order to trade.
4.Secondly you do it without money from its beginning until its end
instructions 4:
Trade is happening in the second story without money.
This mean that, you do this for another and another does that for you, and money isn't involved between the two of you, in the second story.
5. For the second way when you do it without money, you have to spend less time and effort to do it, from its beginning until its end
how to imagine:
In the first story when you do it with money, you have to spend more time and effort to do it, from its beginning until its end
6. I wonder would you say you are using your money wisely?
7. Because if you would, wait a minute before you start replying, and listen to me.
In both stories that you can come back to me, you are trading with another.
In one of the stories, you have to spend more time and effort, to do what you freely imagined you do with another, plus you have to also use money on top of having to spend more time and effort to do it, unlike the way you do it in the other story.
In the other story, you have to spend less time and effort, to do what you freely imagined you do with another, and as you also have to not use money in the second story, you don't have to spend time and effort to use money, unlike the way you do it in one of the stories.
8. So it seems to me that the other story, and not one of the stories, is what you would be looking for...if it seems sensible to you to spend less time and effort, and not get caught up in one of those stories...you know the ones I'm talking about, no?.. if not I am talking about one of the stories where you have to spend endless time and effort even for the simplest of things.
And this is why it seems to me that money reduces time and effort spend to trade, but let's add more clarifications from the beginning, so that we don't misunderstand each other...
what do you think will happen if you give money to your girlfriend...and the way you do it, whatever way that is...happens to increase the tme and effort she has to spend to feel good? (because I think you already know the answer here...)
e.g. imagine after you have sex with your girlfriend, you really had a good time, she really put in the time and effort for both to have a good time, and you really want to thank her...and you decide to give her money for that... (...and I hope you haven't tried that...)
and there is a range from don't give money to your girl after sex, to don't expect sex from a prostitute without money...
but this doesn't stop in sex...
you sometimes choose with people that are close to opt out of money if it messes up the relationship between the two of you, for the specific occasion...
...and you usually choose with strangers to use money, as you don't know them and can't trust exchanges without money.
and whether you choose one or the other depends on how much time and effort you have to spend either by using money or not, to do what you want to do.
And finally, the reason why this is important and why I am not simply making fun of you, just in case I am giving such an impression, is that...
When one wants to play tricks with you with money, what you agreed with that one, isn't getting done, or it takes significantly more time and effort to get done, and that one usually comes back with a complicated spaghettis story, that doesn't seem to end...and then that one keeps wasting your time and effort.
It seems simple and practical for one's life to remember that , it seems to me...but perhaps I'm wrong...this is why I wrote it here, to see people's questions/view/objections
First, why are you spamming the forum with this idea? I have already destroyed your "thought experiment". I have nothing better to do so I will destroy it again, but this time with two additional examples.
1: Imagine that you do something
Example 1: Losing some weight
Example 2: Getting some food
Example 3: Replacing a toilet
2: You do this something that you imagine in two different ways from its beginning until its end
Example 1: Ride a bike or run
Example 2: A hamburger or a chicken burger
Example 3: A regular toilet or a high efficiency toilet
3.First you do it with money from its beginning until its end
Example 1: I buy a bicycle and lose weight
Example 2: I buy a hamburger and eat it
Example 3: I buy a toilet and replace the old one
4: Secondly you do it without money from its beginning until its end
Example 1: I have no money to buy running shoes. The shoe store will not accept my offer of labor and I do not want to work for a shoe store. I have nothing to offer the shoe store.
Example 2: I have no money to buy a chicken burger. The store will not accept my offer of labor and I do not want to work for a chicken store. I have nothing to offer the chicken store.
Example 3: I have no money to buy a toilet. The home improvement store will not accept my offer of labor and I do not want to work for a home improvement store. I have nothing to offer the home improvement store.
5. For the second way when you do it without money, you have to spend less time and effort to do it, from its beginning until its end
how to imagine.
Example 1: This is false. I am unable to lose weight because I do not have running shoes. I am unable to do it, "... from its beginning until its end" [sic].
Example 2: This is false. I am unable to eat because I do not have a chicken burger. I am unable to do it, "... from its beginning until its end" [sic].
Example 3: This is false. I am unable to replace my toilet because I do not have a replacement toilet. I am unable to do it, "... from its beginning until its end" [sic].
6. I wonder would you say you are using your money wisely?
Example 1: Yes. I spent money to get shoes so I can lose weight.
Example 2: Yes. I spent money to get a chicken burger so I can eat.
Example 3: Yes. I spent money to get a toilet so I feel better.
7. Because if you would, wait a minute before you start replying, and listen to me.
Example 1, 2, and 3: I have already taken a minute. Why should I listen to you when you have spammed this thread across this forum? What is this, the third time? In all the examples I have presented, I have not wasted any extra time in trading extra things or doing extra work. My employer has a task. They offer me money for said task. I do said task. I get said money.
One "story" has me spending money I have already earned and completing a task. The other "story" doesn't have me spend money and I am unable to complete the task. One story has me fit, satisfied, and free. The other has me lazy, starving, and "without relief".
You don't have to guess which one I want to be.
The rest of 7 does not make sense. All of 8 does not make sense.
If I can get the exact same results (weight loss, full stomach, new toilet) without having to spend money, then I would do it. If I had to do extra work, on top of what I get paid for, then no. I would figure out my budget and make it so I don't have to do extra.
It occurs to me that I can imagine a teenager, looking at a world where all the good stuff costs money. I can imagine a teenager looking at that world and thinking, "it would be so much less effort, without money. I wouldn't have to get a job and work hard and earn money buy what I want. I could just... get it."
Ok, let's try this for 1 day as a thought experiment for me.
I'm a teacher, so I go to work in the morning and teach about 70+ different teenagers the wonders of chemistry. Each for an hour a day. In exchange they all bring me ... something.
In fact they need to bring something for each teacher, and given that the school needs upkeep for heating, cleaning etc, they need to bring additional goods for that.
Now I have the material gifts of 70+ students. None of their parents work in agriculture, so odds of these things being edible are low. And given the large amount of stuff I'll probably need a car to transport it.
This car now needs gas, so I need to go to a gas station and hope that I can give them something, that they can give to a refinery, that the refinery can give to a shipping company, that the shipping company can give to an oil extraction company so they can give it to their workers. If not, well no gas today.
Now I need to give something else to the supermarket, with a similar chain.
Oh and wait, my house needs upkeep, better start saving random stuff in the hope I eventually can trade things to a plumber, electrician, painter.
Oh and I need to hope I have stuff to give to the companies supplying me with drinking water, and electricity, and who take away the household waste, and the sewage companies.
Of course, since what I get are small random things I'll need to store them in my house until I have enough to deal with that, and I'd better hope nothing is perishable.
Seriously, even cryptocurrencies, where your income could be halved or doubled on because of a tweet someone sent out on a whim, are a better alternative then barter.
There is a reason every society that organizes beyond small village invents a form of currency.
But what if we had something that wasn't money but had all the useful properties of money (which are a-plenty) and none of its bad properties (none of which I can name right now)?
It’s easy to sit there and say you’d like to have more money. And I guess that’s what I like about it. It’s easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, wanting that money. --Jack Handey
you need to be more specific in what it is that you don't understand,
you are replying that you you don't understand, and that your answer do make sense...
if your answers do make so much sense you guys, why don't you start your on thread, where people can hear your views...
anyone who has something of use to say here?
for the rest of you who are getting angry, just in case this time you read
After one gets angry, some time has to pass for that one to relax, because if you REALLY think otherwise…
After one gets angry, some time doesn’t have to pass for that one to relax, but if you think this is REALLY ok for you…
If in the end, after one gets angry, some time doesn’t have to pass for that one to relax, it doesn’t seem to me that one isn’t constantly angry…does it seem to you…
First, why are you spamming the forum with this idea? I have already destroyed your "thought experiment". I have nothing better to do so I will destroy it again, but this time with two additional examples.
4: Secondly you do it without money from its beginning until its end
Example 1: I have no money to buy running shoes. The shoe store will not accept my offer of labor and I do not want to work for a shoe store. I have nothing to offer the shoe store.
Example 2: I have no money to buy a chicken burger. The store will not accept my offer of labor and I do not want to work for a chicken store. I have nothing to offer the chicken store.
Example 3: I have no money to buy a toilet. The home improvement store will not accept my offer of labor and I do not want to work for a home improvement store. I have nothing to offer the home improvement store.
you are not trading in the example that you are thinking with without money, as the other person is not trading with you.
one case you are trading with money
on the other case you are not trading, as the other part will not accept anything but money.
Fair enough, but these are not two cases for both of which you are trading with someone.
e.g.
Inside a company there is trouble among teams, and a project is behind schedule.
Trading option one with money: using money hire extra hands to help bring the project back to track
Trading option two without money: without using money, teams start getting their stuff together and communicate, to help bring the project back to track.
If option one takes less time and effort, it is the preferable choice, if it doesn't it is not, however this needs to be weighted per case to decide.
'Course, that would be better spent trying to write something coherent, rather than ego-wanks about how everyone else is writing nonsense or getting angry. But I suppose for some people the latter is the best they can do
It’s easy to sit there and say you’d like to have more money. And I guess that’s what I like about it. It’s easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, wanting that money. --Jack Handey
money on its own doesn't have value.
If you give money to a cat, your money is useless to your cat.
If you give money to your girl, after sex, you made a mistake...
What is valuable to humans, is for them to have a good time without spending too much time and effort explaining stuff.
Why?
Because if something is valuable to one, it is valuable for one to experience it...if it is not valuable for one to experience something, hardly one can find value in that something after some time.
And money themselves don't represent value, they represent information that one who has money probably does something right and this is why it is right for that one to have money.
Fair enough I say to that, but if one cannot make money again and again, because of some skill one has, but simply because of some position one holds, then the position is valuable to the rest and not the skills one has.
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