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Does anything exist?

Things like "True = Not False" and "A=A" and concepts like tautologies, contradictions are so obvious and self-evident it's silly to give some organized methodology the "credit" for it.

Like I said earlier A=A blew exactly zero minds when some philosopher wrote an entire leather-bound book full of Latin phrases about it.
 
Things like "True = Not False" and "A=A" and concepts like tautologies, contradictions are so obvious and self-evident it's silly to give some organized methodology the "credit" for it.

I wasn't giving "some organized methodology the "credit" for it". You asked for what acts as the bedrock for philosophy, it is those things I noted.

Like I said earlier A=A blew exactly zero minds when some philosopher wrote an entire leather-bound book full of Latin phrases about it.

Ok sorry I didn't know the number of minds blown was a condition for what acts as the bedrock for philosophy.
 
"Yes, we all know we can create a sentence that's nonsense." was your own answer to your question, not mine.

You're not making any sense. That was an answer to YOUR post, not mine.

Again, as directly answered before, it is a philosophical approach called Dialetheism. Though "conclude" would be a misrepresentation since it would be like a contradiction always being false (due to TRUE = NOT FALSE being an axiom), a foundational presupposition, as abaddon noted.

That is not an answer to my question. Gods, it's really impossible to get you guys to commit to any actual answer, isn't it? You know exactly where this line of reasoning leads to and you really don't want to get there.

Wait as long as suits you.

In other words you have no intention of discussing this issue honestly and rationally.
 
Basically foundational things like axioms, tautologies, contradictions and such that form the basis of reasoning or say mathematics and logic and other such "A priori" (purely reasoned) knowledge in contrast to "a posteriori" knowledge from empirical evidence and personnal experience.

That's exactly what I was getting at. If logic, the basis of which is that things cannot contradict themselves in reality, is an axiom, then it cannot be discussed philosophically.

You lot have been buzzing around that conclusion for days because you know it leads to "logic" NOT being part of philosophy. Say what you want about science folks but they don't shy away from uncomfortable conclusions.
 
I wasn't giving "some organized methodology the "credit" for it". You asked for what acts as the bedrock for philosophy, it is those things I noted.

Okay so what are those bedrocks? Proto-philosophy?

Ok sorry I didn't know the number of minds blown was a condition for what acts as the bedrock for philosophy.

Isn't our jaws dropping at the wisdom of the Old Wise Men on the mountain the whole reaction we're supposed to be having?

If philosophy isn't blowing my mind and isn't doing anything practical what's the point?

WHAT'S THE POINT?

WHAT... IS... THE... POINT?

Again what philosophy "isn't" changes as much as what it is. I'm looking for a consistent answer here and not getting anything resembling one.

"Philosophy" is whatever everyone needs to win whatever part of the argument they are in at the moment they are making it.
 
Again what philosophy "isn't" changes as much as what it is. I'm looking for a consistent answer here and not getting anything resembling one.

"Philosophy" is whatever everyone needs to win whatever part of the argument they are in at the moment they are making it.

You're wasting your time. There's a reason why they ignored the actual definitions of the word I posted: they are way too narrow, focused and clear. It relegates philosophy to the study of certain topics, in a certain way, and they really don't like it.
 
That's exactly what I was getting at. If logic, the basis of which is that things cannot contradict themselves in reality, is an axiom, then it cannot be discussed philosophically.

You lot have been buzzing around that conclusion for days because you know it leads to "logic" NOT being part of philosophy. Say what you want about science folks but they don't shy away from uncomfortable conclusions.
Bit of a problem, isn't it. If logic is merely a product of philosophy, how can philosophy be logical?

People build whole careers out of this style of nonsense.
 
Bit of a problem, isn't it. If logic is merely a product of philosophy, how can philosophy be logical?

People build whole careers out of this style of nonsense.

The thing is that I think we mixed up "logic" as in the study of logical arguments and how to apply them, which sounds to me like it's part of philosophy, and "logic" as in the actual fact that X and ~X cannot be true at the same time, which is axiomatic to any thought process that makes sense.
 
It took me a while to understand that most posters here are talking past each other - on purpose.

I'm not super-familiar with the specific beef the empiricists here have with "philosophy," but there seems to be an argument not fully spelled out that I'm not getting. It's related to the idea that there is a "philosophy of science," that philosophy predates and is parent to the sciences, meaning science is somehow secondary to philosophy.

I'm interested in what people mean when they "science isn't our only way of knowing" - I'd like examples, please, of other, perhaps better ways of knowing other subjects, if someone wanted to get specific.

This is going far afield as the topic is "does anything exist" but my small observation re: philosophy is that the definition of the term has changed over time. To me, having an acknowledged philosophical conversation now seems to carry with it the idea that the parties are specifically addressing topics that do not have a firm claim to empirical proof. Someone might have a "philosophy" of child raising specifically because there is no simple answer as to the right way to raise a kid, scientifically speaking.
 
Dozens of people parading through the thread to (sometimes) clearly explain their own personal definition of philosophy none of which clearly line up, is sort of the point we're making.

I don't care (within this context) what (g)your definition of philosophy is, because the next person is going to use the word to mean something totally different.
 
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But it is doing something right now - it's keeping this thread going.
Now you could argue that if that's all philosophy is good for then it's useless, but if so what are you doing here?


I don't think philosophy is keeping this thread going. At least half the people here are critical or dismissive of what is being claimed here as "philosophy".

And if it's philosophy merely because a dozen of us are talking about things and thinking about what we say, then it would again be a claim that all constructive thought is philosophy, and that idea becomes completely ridiculous (all animals and birds etc. would also be practicing philosophy all day long).
 
It took me a while to understand that most posters here are talking past each other - on purpose.

Given how consistently I and others have tried to pin down the opposition on the various issues raised here, it's odd that you think that. I guess that's a "both sides" attitude.

I'm not super-familiar with the specific beef the empiricists here have with "philosophy,"

Then you haven't read the thread, which sure doesn't help your understanding.
 
“All other fields of human endeavour” are not “irrelevant and trivial”, but when it comes to understanding what we detect as the material existing world around us, then science has “proved” beyond all credible dispute or argument, that it is by far our most reliable and accurate way of correctly assessing and understanding that.

Oh, I agree with this totally, of course. It's just that as important as it is to establish facts about the nature of the material world and to develope (useful and not destructive) technology, there are lots of areas where science is mostly just a helpful tool or not much of a factor at all. Like for example morality and ethics - science cannot be used to overcome is/ought dichotomy, but it can be useful as a secondary tool in those fields. Art is a very important, crucially important are of human activity and there too science is peripheral. Science establishes facts not meanings.

I think philosophy as a modern academic discipline is doing fine, but it cannot any longer much assist science, for that part its work is largely done, but I don't think it ever was very central to philosophy. Of course this is a science dominated forum and most people are impatiently asking about the utility, the practical concrete use of philosophy. Well, it certainly cannot build unimaginably horrible weapons of mass destruction or create technology that will lead to massive and destructive changes in climate, that's for sure.

And there is lots of natural science that is not particularly useful in any practical sense - if we find a new species of fly that exists on 10 hectares spot on mountain in Outer Mongolia, it will not be of a huge practical benefit to any. It is knowlege for knowlege's sake - I think much of philosophy is understanding for understanding's sake, related to art, but more formal and at its best, it gives majestic views on our wild, breathtaking, rather existentialist human condition and experience of being in this world.
 
You're not making any sense. That was an answer to YOUR post, not mine.

I didn't post a question, you did and I answered it. Then you posted a response that was answering a question neither of us asked.


That is not an answer to my question. Gods, it's really impossible to get you guys to commit to any actual answer, isn't it? You know exactly where this line of reasoning leads to and you really don't want to get there.

Yes it is, to both your first and your follow up question. Again it is the philosophical approach called Dialetheism that questions 'are X and ~X mutually-exclusive' and holds that they aren't or need not be. Again that's not a conclusion but a foundational presupposition of Dialetheism. Where you want to take your line of reasoning is entirely up to you but those are answers to the questions you did ask and I answered.


In other words you have no intention of discussing this issue honestly and rationally.

I have been discussing this issue honestly and rationally. So those "other words" are entirely yours. You said you were going to wait for me to figure out what you were thinking. I figured when you had waited as long as suited you, you might try discussing it, if that is what your wanted.


Sorry, busy day and I have to get back to work, I only had a bit of time. I'll try to respond to other posts later.
 
Carpenter makes a hammer. Carpenter uses the hammer.

Or is the hammer using the carpenter? Surely the carpenters actions with the hammer are constrained by the nature of the hammer, right?

One cannot perform neurosurgery with a hammer. Maybe the terminal kind. but a hammer cannot be used for the french polishing a carpenter may perform.

So who is in charge? The carpenter or the hammer?

Isn't philosophy fun?
 
I didn't post a question, you did and I answered it. Then you posted a response that was answering a question neither of us asked.

I answered your point. You talked about "dialetheia". I responded that anyone can create a sentence that is nonsensical or contradictory, but my question wasn't about that, so your posting that made little sense.

Yes it is, to both your first and your follow up question. Again it is the philosophical approach called Dialetheism that questions 'are X and ~X mutually-exclusive' and holds that they aren't or need not be. Again that's not a conclusion but a foundational presupposition of Dialetheism.

Find me any philosophy, theory or idea that presupposes the opposite. You won't, because that logical reality is so fundamental and self-evident that nobody has ever argued that it can possibly be wrong. So, in fact the answer to my first question is NO, because there cannot be a rational discussion about whether that presumption is false.

I have been discussing this issue honestly and rationally. So those "other words" are entirely yours. You said you were going to wait for me to figure out what you were thinking.

See my point about honesty? That's not what I said at all. You are lying.

I said I would wait for you to work out the contradiction. I've explained it a bit above. If it's an axiom, one universal, then it's not a topic of discussion, philosophical or otherwise, and no philosophy could ever presume otherwise. That's why I said earlier that logic is far more fundamental than philosophy, but none of you wanted to hear it.
 
Okay everybody follow along.

I'm going to invent an idea. It's a fleen. A fleen is defined as a singular, unique object. There literally, by definition, can't be two fleens, because then it's not a fleen.

Now... imagine two FLEENS! OMG THE PARADOX OF IT ALL!

That's all like 99% of philosophy, the parts aren't just outright reworded Woo, are.
 
I don't think philosophy is keeping this thread going. At least half the people here are critical or dismissive of what is being claimed here as "philosophy".


If you don't want to use of discuss philosophy. Don't try to use logic to decide if something is logical or not because logic is a branch of philosophy. Don't try to figure out what we know or don't know because epistemology is a branch of philosophy. Don't try to figure out if something is ethical or not because ethics is a branch of philosophy.

Philosophy has a long, well documented history. You are not free to redefine what it is or is not.
 
Oh, I agree with this totally, of course. It's just that as important as it is to establish facts about the nature of the material world and to develope (useful and not destructive) technology, there are lots of areas where science is mostly just a helpful tool or not much of a factor at all. Like for example morality and ethics - science cannot be used to overcome is/ought dichotomy, but it can be useful as a secondary tool in those fields. Art is a very important, crucially important are of human activity and there too science is peripheral. Science establishes facts not meanings.

I think philosophy as a modern academic discipline is doing fine, but it cannot any longer much assist science, for that part its work is largely done, but I don't think it ever was very central to philosophy. Of course this is a science dominated forum and most people are impatiently asking about the utility, the practical concrete use of philosophy. Well, it certainly cannot build unimaginably horrible weapons of mass destruction or create technology that will lead to massive and destructive changes in climate, that's for sure.

And there is lots of natural science that is not particularly useful in any practical sense - if we find a new species of fly that exists on 10 hectares spot on mountain in Outer Mongolia, it will not be of a huge practical benefit to any. It is knowlege for knowlege's sake - I think much of philosophy is understanding for understanding's sake, related to art, but more formal and at its best, it gives majestic views on our wild, breathtaking, rather existentialist human condition and experience of being in this world.



OK. Well, ... you mention a number of other subjects and various ideas where you say science is not important or not very useful, but where philosophy is said to be important & useful. Only problem is that none of those subjects or ideas seem to involve real actual tangible (material) things. Instead they are all composed of ideas and beliefs or very subjective feelings etc.

What any of us may think is ethical or moral (for example) is purely a matter of personal opinion. Of course over the history of mankind we have learned that it's far better for everyone if we set standards, for examples so that laws are enacted by the courts. So certain behaviours might be legally judged to be unethical or immoral etc. But all that is really saying is that we want to stop people acting in ways that unfairly harm other people. It's really nothing to do with formal academic philosophy (or should not be) - things like that are just a matter of collective judgement about what is dangerous or undesirable in society and which want to deter or stop.

You mentioned art (which might include music and poetry and in fact all sorts of things). But if for simplicity we just look at painted art (or any other form of art), that is entirely a subjective judgement as to whether any piece of art is attractive or desirable or not ... the emotional reaction is not a real thing ... it's a personal subjective view which is wide open to change depending many factors, such as the era in which we live, the culture around us, how we wish to portray ourselves to others etc. etc. ...the artwork itself is a real thing, but it does not actually have any intrinsic value that is good or bad or indifferent except when suddenly judged by an entirely subjective personal opinion that is in any case transient and completely open to change.

None of us need a course in philosophy to decide what paintings or what music we might say that we like at any point in our lives (and where at some other time in our lives we might very well change our minds and say we don't like that any more!)

You mentioned weapons of mass destruction and climate change etc. But that is clearly not the fault of science. That's a really old and washed-up argument. You are talking there about individual people, or populations, and governments, and law making etc., which uses or abuses the science to create all sorts of damage. But it's not the fault of science that people in government have bombs and other weapons built ... and it's not a fault of scientific knowledge that governments and all sorts of people cause damage to the environment ... just because science once discovered that energy could be released by igniting petroleum products, and where inventors turned that into use in mechanical engines, and later inventors and financial businessmen used those ideas to make motor cars which we now see as harming the planet because there so many of them … to blame scientific research for any of that is both absurd and/or really disingenuous.

Finally, on your hypothetical fly on a mountain – if you give us a specific example, then I expect we can check to see what the researchers had to say about the value of what they were doing. But there almost always is a practical point to what science does, even if that is not immediately obvious to people outside that particular research group. A similar criticism has always been levelled at sending manned craft to the moon, or sending any craft to Mars or other planets … in those cases millions of people bitterly complained that it was all an obvious waste of money … but afaik, all of that research has in fact produced real significant value in all sorts of ways , so that the public criticism, while understandable, has really proved misguided and rather naïve.
 

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