Being a racist while having a soft skull

[Belz...]

It's great if you want to argue, but let's keep it within striking distance of honesty, shall we?

There is nothing dishonest about what I said. We all saw your argument there and all understood exactly what you said. Don't run away from it. Accept it, and accept that you will never live it down.

Now, would you want to retract your nonsensical accusation about some "fanfic", now that I've explained to you exactly what I said and meant?

 

[Thermal]

Hey, pay attention: I didn't ADD anything. I pointed out that the assertion about asking someone to repeat oneself MEANS THEY ARE COOL AND COLLECTED. It doesn't, and I provided AN EXAMPLE to illustrate my point.

It's not my fault if you didn't understand anything I posted.

Police: Pujols asked the man to repeat that.

Belz...: Say that again, I dare you

Yeah, you didn't ADD, true enough. You rebuilt a question into a demand and challenge.

 

[Belz...]

Police: Pujols asked the man to repeat that.

Belz...: Say that again, I dare you

Yeah, you didn't ADD, true enough. You rebuilt a question into a demand and challenge.

Wow, even after the clarification you understood nothing.

At this point it might be deliberate on your part, no? I mean once I've explained that it was an EXAMPLE to illustrate that asking someone to repeat their slur doesn't automatically mean you were calm and collected, you should understand that it wasn't a rewording of the current situation or some hypothetical. But somehow you don't.

 

[Thermal]

There is nothing dishonest about what I said. We all saw your argument there and all understood exactly what you said. Don't run away from it. Accept it, and accept that you will never live it down.

My argument was about how fast he was moving compared with distance covered, and whether we could assume that he was 'running for his life'. I pose that he was not as timid a rabbit as the Great White Saviors of the forum make him out to be. Which says a hell of a lot more about their assumptions than mine.

Now, would you want to retract your nonsensical accusation about some "fanfic", now that I've explained to you exactly what I said and meant?

Again, I don't object to what you said. Did you forget to read again?

I am objecting to the disingenuous and selective label of fan fic being thrown around like a mega strawman.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Pujols might be able to use Florida State Statute 782.03 as a defence

782.03 Excusable homicide
Homicide is excusable when committed by accident and misfortune in doing any lawful act by lawful means with usual ordinary caution, and without any unlawful intent, or by accident and misfortune in the heat of passion, upon any sudden and sufficient provocation, or upon a sudden combat, without any dangerous weapon being used and not done in a cruel or unusual manner.​

I think he would fail on that claim, because he had the calmness and presence of mind to ask the coot to repeat it before unloading on him. That shows deliberate, cooly calculated intent.

Was it coolness and calmness though? For example

Victim: *aggressively* "Shut ya' face ****** (n-word)!!

Pujols: *more aggressively* "You wanna repeat that!!!"

Victim: *even more aggressively* "I said shut ya' face ******!!

Pujols: WHACK!!!

If this is anything like it played out, the defense could easily argue that Pujols gave the victim an opportunity to back away from what he said. Rather than taking that opportunity, the victim chose to aggressively ramp up the provocation by repeating the racial slur.

I'm not arguing for Pujols, I'm just commenting that the defense might probably try this, and IMO, if has a non-zero chance of being successful.

Also in response to Thermal:

No it doesn't. "Say that again, I dare you" is not cool or collected.

Thermal: The highlighted is more fan-fic than anything said in response to it. There is no mention in the police report of him being calm, cool, or collected. And we know exactly how reliable police reports are from . . . checks notes . . . every recent case of note. So, let's not pick it apart too much looking for meaning in the words left unsaid.

If you want to have this argument instead of discussing the case, cool, I guess. But it seems a bit much to get so deep into until the video and audio of the incident is released.

Sucks that Pujols wasn't better trained by his employer in how to deal with racist ********.

Also weird that conservatives are now claiming that "racist *******" is a defining feature of their political identity. When the inclusion of racial slurs turns a customer complaint into political speech you have to wonder what has happened to the high art of political speech. Or the politics of the party making the claim.

 

[theprestige]

Nope. Racial abuse, in speech, is an example of scumbaggery.

Potato, potato.

 

[Thermal]

Also in response to Thermal:



Thermal: The highlighted is more fan-fic than anything said in response to it. There is no mention in the police report of him being calm, cool, or collected. And we know exactly how reliable police reports are from . . . checks notes . . . every recent case of note. So, let's not pick it apart too much looking for meaning in the words left unsaid.

And as I responded to smartcooky, it's fair enough.

Regarding which is more fan fic: the reporting says he was asked to repeat it. While it may be assuming to much (agreed), the wording falls more in line with cool and collected than demands and daring. Are you suggesting that demands and posing dares are a more neutral way of expressing 'he asked him to repeat that'? Seriously?

If you want to have this argument instead of discussing the case, cool, I guess. But it seems a bit much to get so deep into until the video and audio of the incident is released

Yeah, that's my usual position. Barring a massively threatening bodybuilder/boxer senior citizen though, I can't imagine much that warrants punching a geriatric complaining customer.

Sucks that Pujols wasn't better trained by his employer in how to deal with racist ********.

Fan fic! Called it! How do you know he wasn't trained impeccably? Is it implausible that his training was excellent, and he deliberately chose to disregard it? Or does better training require surrender of agency?

No, I'm not serious. The fan fic BS is getting tiresome, so I thought I'd call some attention to its misuse. For the skeptics here.

Also weird that conservatives are now claiming that "racist *******" is a defining feature of their political identity. When the inclusion of racial slurs turns a customer complaint into political speech you have to wonder what has happened to the high art of political speech. Or the politics of the party making the claim.

Agreed, this is not likely some political position taken by the killer on the bounds of free speech. Opens up a Fighting Words discussion, though. Assuming the n-word used, was he morally right to pop the old guy one? Assuming 'boy', same?

Also, since you are throwing shade on the accuracy of police reporting, how much of this entire story is credible, from that assumption?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I see Thermal's impossibly collected, calculating black man has made an appearance again. Yes, just like Arbery was "toying" with the men trying to run him down in their trucks, this guy surely was calmly analyzing the situation and meticulously planning how to respond to being confronted by a belligerent racist.

 

[Thermal]

Impossibly, huh? You seem to think black guys are pretty one-dimensional. They behave stereotypically even. Hm.

 

[Belz...]

I am objecting to the disingenuous and selective label of fan fic being thrown around like a mega strawman.

Who did that? Giving you a counter-example to argue against the idea that the man who threw the punch was cold and calculating isn't fan fic nor is it a hypothetical. I'd like you to at least understand and admit this, but given your track record I don't expect anything.

I see Thermal's impossibly collected, calculating black man has made an appearance again.

Yeah we're two out of of three to triangulate a conclusion from it.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Impossibly, huh? You seem to think black guys are pretty one-dimensional. They behave stereotypically even. Hm.

It's curious you seem to assume that black people react to stressful situations with unusual, even superhuman, presence of mind.

 

[Belz...]

Impossibly, huh? You seem to think black guys are pretty one-dimensional. They behave stereotypically even. Hm.

Shades of "the democrats are the REAL racists".

 

[Dr. Keith]

No, I'm not serious. The fan fic BS is getting tiresome, so I thought I'd call some attention to its misuse. For the skeptics here.

Got it.

Agreed, this is not likely some political position taken by the killer on the bounds of free speech. Opens up a Fighting Words discussion, though. Assuming the n-word used, was he morally right to pop the old guy one? Assuming 'boy', same?

I'd really like to see more facts developed on both counts. If the guy was wearing a MAGA hat then maybe it was political. It's not like he would be the first black man to wear one. And fighting words is always so fact based that even the slightest change in facts can make it hard to use. Minor things, like the race of the assailant, the race of the assailed, and the location of the courthouse, can have huge impacts on the outcome.

Also, since you are throwing shade on the accuracy of police reporting, how much of this entire story is credible, from that assumption?

Not much. Initial reporting often proves out to be less than credible for many reasons. Relying on police reports is just one of them.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Is your mind always in the gutter?

I think the gutter is the best place for a mind to be.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yeah, racial slurs are a bit more than just "rude words". Using them can often carry consequences; loss of job or status, expulsion from schools or universities, banning from sports events etc. In some countries, those consequences are imposed by the law itself.

Or, in this case, a murder that gets lauded by a bunch of people who value feelings over lives.

 

[Belz...]

Or, in this case, a murder that gets lauded by a bunch of people who value feelings over lives.

Where did that happen?

 

[Emily's Cat]

It's unfortunate that he will pay such a heavy price for feeling entitled. He thought he was just going to cause a little pain, maybe a bloody nose, and teach that guy a lesson. Instead, a huge chunk of his life is going to suck really bad.


For ST and anyone else who is happy about the outcome with regards to the not-so-dear departed, just think about how your actions may have contributed to the young man's actions. I'm sure that a lot of people told that young man that racists are bad people and ought to be punched in the face. Those people don't have to pay the price that he will pay.

Yep

 

[Meadmaker]

I hope you don't really mean that and if you do I'm pleased that things seem to be moving away from outdated attitudes like that.

Of course I mean that.


And I don't actually think society is moving away from that, if the truth be told. Other than a few "special" words, referring to race, sex, or sexuality, I think that we are supposed to never get angry. Anger is bad. It's the Dark Side. So, unless it is self righteous anger about some sort of social cause, if people say bad stuff about you, you are not only expected not to punch them out, or even yell at them. You may express disappointment, so long as you don't go to far. It's still ok to say, "I'm sorry you feel that way.", but "Shove it, jerk" is frowned upon, no matter what the provocation, except for the "special" provocations, that is.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Indeed, we have seen a number of Trump supporters on this site OK with Trump saying...

• It's OK for cops to "bump" the heads of suspect as they put them in the car
• It's OK to beat up a heckler, because he (Trump) will front his legal bills (and fat chance of the former)
• It's OK to use violence on BLM protesters, but
• "There are very fine people, on both sides" when a member of one of those sides just murdered someone and injured several others by driving their car into a crowd of peaceful protesters.

I'd rather like some support for this assertion. I haven't seen more than a very few Trump supporters on this site at all, let a lone "a number of". I mean, sure technically "a number of" might be one, because one is a number (the loneliest number). But the implied " a number of" suggests several, not one.

Beyond that, I don't believe I've seen anyone making any of the claims that you've ascribed to "a number of" people. I'll acknowledge an upfront caveat, in that there are a lot of threads I never read, and there are a small handful of people that I have on ignore and who could have said such things and I wouldn't have seen them.

Either way, you're asserting that multiple members of ISF have expressed that such actions are ACCEPTABLE actions. I could envision people expressing that such actions are DEFENSIBLE in very specific circumstances, but not that they're ACCEPTABLE as a broad approach. And your assertions above imply the latter. I think this merits some supporting evidence.


ETA: I don't believe any of the sentiments you assert have been expressed by any of the posters in this thread.

 

[Thermal]

It's curious you seem to assume that black people react to stressful situations with unusual, even superhuman, presence of mind.

No, I give them the benefit of the doubt that they could respond in a variety of ways. You don't.

What is superhuman about Arbery not being cowed by some fat rednecks Keystone copping around In pickups? Remember, as far as we know no guns were out till the end (Greg picked his up from the holster in the bed after shots fired, and I'm not entertaining the idiocy that Travis was driving and doing U-turns with a minimum 37" Remy 870 in his lap).

What is superhuman about Pujols not being cowed by a 77 yr old man? Do you tremble in fear over geriatrics complaining about donut shop service?

Go ahead, please describe how a black man would have to be superhuman to be collected in both cases. Try not to let your contempt for the idea of a black man having some balls be too obvious