IDF General Sued For "Targeted Killings"

[Skeptic]

Sorry, who's that? Who are you talking about? I don't know anyone that answers to that description.

Oh, it's nobody in particular.

Nobody at all...

 

[Orwell]

Sure you would. After all, anyone who continues to serve in the IDF must be a hypocritical, amoral, bloodthirsty racist, right? I guess that means you think something like half the Israeli population - those who serve in the IDF - also falls into those categories, because, hey, they don't refuse to serve, or resign immediately upon being drafted. I'm just as fed up with human rights abuses as you are, Orwell, but you're going about this all wrong, and you have some, shall we say, rather uninformed opinions. Passion is good. Passion for The Right Thing is a fabulous characteristic, but you have to have the right tools. The first is accurate information. Without that you do more damage than good. Don't dismiss IDF sources out of hand, Orwell. I don't, Israeli human rights organizations don't, the left-leaning national media don't, and neither should you.

I'm not dismissing IDF sources, bud. I'm dismissing Webfusion as a credible source. He's not credible because he has said things that lead me to believe that he's a bigot. And I would trust human rights organisations before I trust the IDF.

Orwell, the IDF has a job to do, and it does it as well as can be expected, considering that it's charged with defending Israeli citizens from terrorists who think nothing of using civilians for cover as a matter of course. When push comes to shove, and citizens' lives are on the line, as anti-occupation as I may be, I don't fault IDF commanders for deciding to shoot even though they might hit an innocent. Tragic, unfortunate, depressing, etc., but not ultimately wrong. Wrong would be a strategy of hiding among civilians with the goal of protection, and crying foul when somehow that doesn't confer immunity. Wrong would be thinking that somehow there always exists a practical way to identify, isolate and remove terrorists without harming anyone else. Until you can demonstrate specific constructive alternatives that serve the same tactical purpose there's no reason to get your knickers in a twist becasue of the way things are done now.

The problem, Orwell, is not with the IDF. The IDF is and always has been an arm of Israeli policy, not a shaper. That's what democracy is all about. The democratically elected government gives the military its assignments, not vice versa. Don't like the results? Move to Israel, apply for citizenship and vote. Or develop constructive models and share them with concerned citizens and policymakers. Just as an aside, Orwell, if you want to influence Israeli public opinion - which I think you'll agree is the preferred way of effecting change in a democratic society - stay away from accusing the IDF, as an institution, of systematic abuses. You'll shoot yourself in the foot by alienating everyone but the hardcore left. Even most Arab citizens of Israel (who actually prefer the term "Palestinian," by and large) refrain from that, save a few marginal hotheads and attention-seekers.

That's assuming you have democratic ideals in mind. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one. There's a difference betweem knee-jerk condemnation and constructive criticism. The latter works wonders, and helps your (our?) cause. The former accomplishes nothing. Stay away from it.

What a nice pointless diatribe! Knee-jerk eh? Apparently, since I'm not an Israeli, I'm can't criticise the IDF! Also, criticising the IDF is "shooting myself in the foot"... Well, if that's how things are in Israel, you got a problem. And why do you interpret the following phrase - minimising civilian casualties - a phrase I used often, to mean "no casualties of any kind whatsoever"? Yes, I am accusing the IDF, and by extension, the Israeli government, of human rights abuses. I dunno about "systematic" though... How about "frequent"? Don't like it? Well, that's not my problem now, is it? Influencing Israeli public opinion! Jaysus! Man, I'm just a guy with a computer, someone who got really tired of reading the hogwash that was being spread by the "Israel-right-or-wrong" crowd...

 

[Orwell]

Oh, it's nobody in particular.

Nobody at all...

Ah skeptic, your invective is so dull and unimaginative... Come on, you can do better than that! Gimme something juicy, something partisan hackish, something snappy!

 

[David Swidler]

I'm not dismissing IDF sources, bud. I'm dismissing Webfusion as a credible source. He's not credible because he has said things that lead me to believe that he's a bigot. And I would trust human rights organisations before I trust the IDF.

I think that's a mistake. My organization works with some of those organizations - Amnesty International, B'Tselem, the Association for Civil Rights in Israel - and while they are dedicated, they, too, frequently show bias. It's all but inherent in their information sources. That's why you need to balance their data with other input. Keep in mind that the IDF's own inquiry into the alleged "massacre" in Jenin is now considered the most reliable, even by those human rights organizations who conducted their own investigations.

What a nice pointless diatribe! Knee-jerk eh? Apparently, since I'm not an Israeli, I'm can't criticise the IDF! Also, criticising the IDF is "shooting myself in the foot"... Well, if that's how things are in Israel, you got a problem. And why do you interpret the following phrase - minimising civilian casualties - a phrase I used often, to mean "no casualties of any kind whatsoever"? Yes, I am accusing the IDF, and by extension, the Israeli government, of human rights abuses. I dunno about "systematic" though... How about "frequent"? Don't like it? Well, that's not my problem now, is it? Influencing Israeli public opinion! Jaysus! Man, I'm just a guy with a computer, someone who got really tired of reading the hogwash that was being spread by the "Israel-right-or-wrong" crowd...

Who said you can't criticize the IDF? Criticize away. Just don't expect anyone important to listen. If it's important enough for you to try to counter what you see as propaganda, then this issue obviously resonates with you (I assume you don't hold forth on elections in Vanuatu), and since you apparently care enough to voice your concerns, you might consider doing that in a more effective manner. The reason I perceived your posts as "knee-jerk" is that they seemed more like reflexive (and, I daresay, voluminous) uncritical parroting of Palestinian grievances (as reflected in HR organization reports) than an honest attempt to set the record straight. One doesn't drown out a debate opponent with citations. That just turns it into "he-said-she-said."

As far as webfusion is concerned, go ahead and take his information with a grain of salt, but don't dismiss it. I've taken your side, politically, but you've bent over backwards to discredit his input, and I call foul. His thoughts on this forum regarding Palestinian rights, or any apparent racism he might betray, have no bearing on the military/security arguments he's made. They're sound.

 

[WildCat]

By the way, I do think that Israeli security needs must be subordinated to the respect of basic Palestinian human rights!

Finally! An admission that you think Israel has no basic right to defend herself.

Israelis = no human rights, civilians can be attacked any time, any place.

Palestinians = rights supersede all others, even when they're protecting genocidal militants.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Abbas urges end to rocket attacks by Arabs - January 3, 2005

DEIR EL-BALAH, Gaza Strip - Mahmoud Abbas, the leading candidate for Palestinian president, called on militants Sunday to stop firing rockets at Israel, as Israeli tanks and troops massed in northern Gaza in response to the latest barrage.

Despite vow, Palestinian police free Hamas rocket squad member - May 3rd, 2005 3:10 PM

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — Palestinian police released a member of a Hamas rocket squad on Tuesday, a day after he was detained, despite a pledge by Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas to get tough with those violating a truce with Israel.

Palestinian Abbas pledges to stop rocket attacks - 17 July 2005, 14:35 CDT

GAZA (Reuters) - Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas pledged anew on Sunday to stop a spate of rocket attacks by Hamas militants against Israeli targets. "We will do all we can to prevent these rockets," Abbas told reporters in Gaza...

Abbas pledges end to Gaza attacks - 18 July, 2005, 01:06 GMT

Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas says he will "do his utmost" to stop Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks on Jewish communities.

Abbas fails to restrain Gaza attacks - 19 July, 2005

Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip kept up rocket and mortar fire on Israeli targets, despite Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' vow to do his utmost to prevent further attacks.

Abbas criticizes rocket attacks - Dec. 10, 2005 22:37

Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas on Saturday criticized Palestinian groups for launching rocket attacks on Israel, saying such actions harmed Palestinian interests. However, Abbas stopped short of promising to take any action against those responsible for the rocket attacks.

Well Orwell and company that is nearly one year of vows to stop rocket attacks by the elected leader of the Palestinians. Even after Israel unoccupied Gaza. And guess what?

27 December 2005

Al-Aqsa claimed responsibility for firing rockets into southern Israel on Monday, one of which landed near a nursery school but none of which caused any damage or injuries.

So the terrorists of Al-Aqsa, who happen to be part of the Fatah organisation, who also happens to be the ruling party of the Palestinian Authority is still launching rockets into Israel from Gaza.

So what does Israel do? Listen to another 12 months of "promises" and "pledges" from the Palestinian Prime Minister?

Nope.

27 December 2005

GAZA CITY (AFP) - Israeli air raids struck buildings and roads in the Gaza Strip with the army poised to implement a security zone in the Palestinian territory intended to thwart militant rocket attacks.

Army helicopters fired missiles Tuesday, heavily damaging offices connected to the ruling Fatah movement and roads in the northern part of the territory.

The latest air assault came just hours after Israeli Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz ordered the army to begin assembling a security zone in northern Gaza that Palestinians will be barred from entering.

Yup. That's right. The "massive" Israeli human rights abuses you lambaste, such as firing missles into civilian areas and blowing up civilian roads begins anew.

27 December 2005 (continued)

Helicopter rockets slammed into the offices of Palestinian leader Mahmud Abbas's party at the northern town of Beit Lahiya, causing serious damage but no injuries, Gaza security sources said.

Those bloodthirsty Israelis are even blowing up offices belonging to Palestinian leader Mahmud Abbas's party. How dare they do that! Yet another "example" of Israeli intransigence for your books.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Today in Gaza...from where Palestinian terrorists launch rockets into Israel...

Palestinian gunmen from the Fatah movement take position on the roof of a government building after they stormed it, northern Gaza Strip, December 27, 2005. Sixty gunmen from a faction linked to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah movement took over three government buildings in the Gaza Strip on Tuesday to demand jobs. (Mohammed Salem/Reuters)

Gosh...that'll look good on the old resume...

Palestinian gunmen from the Fatah movement take position on the roof of a government building after they stormed it, northern Gaza Strip, December 27, 2005. (Mohammed Salem/Reuters)

Palestinian gunmen from the Fatah movement take up positions inside a government building after they storm it in the northern Gaza Strip December 27, 2005. (Mohammed Salem/Reuters)

But in a gesture of goodwill the Israelis install much-needed skylights, free of charge!, in the Fatah offices where Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades terrorists happen to hang out.

Palestinian members of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades inspects the rubble in a Fatah office following an Israeli missile strike in Beit Lahiya, northern Gaza Strip, Tuesday Dec. 27, 2005. (AP Photo/Hatem Moussa)

I say it's always ecologically friendly to save energy and use natural lighting...

{edited to add}

In a related news story...

Israeli Military Fires Into Gaza Strip

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - The Israeli military fired a barrage of artillery and missiles at the
Gaza Strip on Tuesday, hitting two offices of the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades and a bridge the army said was used by militants to reach areas where they fire rockets.

The offices of Al Aqsa — a group with links to the ruling Fatah party — were targeted because militants used them to meet, plan and recruit, the army said.

But Palestinians said the offices, empty during the airstrike, were used for social and educational purposes.

Which is pretty funny stuff considering I just posted a picture of terrorists from the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades inspecting the damage in a Fatah office.

 

[zenith-nadir]

In other news.

65% of Palestinians Applaud Terror Attacks on US and Europe - Dec 27, '05

The poll was conducted by FAFO - a Norwegian-based NGO not known for sympathy toward Israel or antipathy toward the PA. FAFO says it conducted the polling among the Palestinian population "in order to assess political feelings after Israel's voluntary withdrawal from Gaza in late-summer 2005." The poll results were reported in the PA newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida last Friday.

So let's go to the poll.

http://www.fafo.no/nyhet/pal-opinion-Dec05-tables.pdf

Specifically page 52 of 102 table 2.22. The title is "Support to Al Queda's bombings in the US and Europe".

65 Palestinians out of 100 said they "support" Al Queda's bombings in the US and Europe, 35 Palestinians out of 100 said they "oppose" Al Queda's bombings in the US and Europe.

I am not making this up.

 

[webfusion]

At the greenhouses in Gaza ---

Armed Palestinian guards at a greenhouse in the Gaza Strip opened fire at a group of Palestinian laborers who approached the structure Monday, wounding four people, hospital officials said.
The laborers approached the greenhouse overnight Monday after hearing rumors that the business' owner planned to fire workers, officials said.
Ahmed al-Masri, general director of the company that operates about 2,700 greenhouses in Gaza, said there were no plans to dismiss workers and accused unknown elements of trying to sabotage the buildings.

• About 8,000 laborers work in the greenhouses, which recently completed their first harvest under Palestinian control. On Sunday, Palestinians exported their first shipment of produce - a crop of strawberries - to Europe, al-Masri said. The Palestinians expect to produce about 170 tons of produce, including cherry tomatoes, cucumbers, peppers and strawberries, with about 80 percent to be exported to Israel and the remainder to Europe.

Imagine that --- Palestinian Security Guards firing at (targeting) civilians! Think of the outrage and negative comments if the IDF was still in position at these places. I am very glad that the Palestinians have control. It is a good thing, and is a small sign that they can stop mobs of violent hooligans if they want to. I hope that translates into efforts of the 30,000 armed PA Police in Gaza to bring about the cessation of other terrorist actions, such as firing of missiles! I doubt it, seriously, but one certainly can hope, despite the numerous citations offered here by Z-N to the contrary!

I personally am very satisfied to see that the greenhouses built by the Jews are being tended by the Gazans themselves and are producing tasty fruits and vegetables for Israel and Europe. That is such positive news, and is the beginning of a path that can lead away from the terrorists being the dominant powers.

============================
Orwell, I'm curious, what 'bigoted statements' can you cite from my previous postings?

 

[zenith-nadir]

I hope that translates into efforts of the 30,000 armed PA Police in Gaza to bring about the cessation of other terrorist actions, such as firing of missiles! I doubt it, seriously, but one certainly can hope, despite the numerous citations offered here by Z-N to the contrary!

I document the "numerous citations" because it is needed to debunk the years of myths that "the occupation" or "the settlements" are the cause of Palestinian terror. Islamic fundamentalism is the cause of Palestinian terror.

Gaza is a perfect example of what I speak of. There are no settlements in Gaza, Gaza is no longer under occupation but the terror remains, the terrorists remain, and just like Arafraud did Abbas and the Palestinian Authority repeat their endless empty pledges to stop the terror....which they never do.

I am not racist or anti-"Palestinian"...but I sure as hell am anti-islamic fundamentalist...(see: Hamas, daily rocket attacks on Israel and the 65% of Palestinians who support Al Queda attacks in Europe and the USA - per the FAFO survey I linked above).

 

[Orwell]

I think that's a mistake. My organization works with some of those organizations - Amnesty International, B'Tselem, the Association for Civil Rights in Israel - and while they are dedicated, they, too, frequently show bias. It's all but inherent in their information sources. That's why you need to balance their data with other input. Keep in mind that the IDF's own inquiry into the alleged "massacre" in Jenin is now considered the most reliable, even by those human rights organizations who conducted their own investigations.

It's not very complicated: there's an hierarchy of credibility that often changes according to opinion. For several reasons, I ma of the opinion that the IDF is generally less credible than human rights organisations. But tis doesn't mean that the IDF has zero credibility. It only means that, compared to certain other sources, the IDF comes second.

Who said you can't criticize the IDF? Criticize away. Just don't expect anyone important to listen. If it's important enough for you to try to counter what you see as propaganda, then this issue obviously resonates with you (I assume you don't hold forth on elections in Vanuatu), and since you apparently care enough to voice your concerns, you might consider doing that in a more effective manner. The reason I perceived your posts as "knee-jerk" is that they seemed more like reflexive (and, I daresay, voluminous) uncritical parroting of Palestinian grievances (as reflected in HR organization reports) than an honest attempt to set the record straight. One doesn't drown out a debate opponent with citations. That just turns it into "he-said-she-said."

You're relatively new to this debate. I tried the reasoned approach with the "Israel-right-or-wrong" crowd. It didn't work. Other people before me tried the honest debate route, and it lead them nowhere. Yes, you are right, these things turn into "he-said-she-said", but not because I want to. It has became like that because any criticism of Israel is met with great hostility around these parts. It is very hard to actually discuss the subject without name calling, heaps of fallacies and misleading dishonest debating. There's a lot of bad faith, lets-win-at-any-price attitudes. The "Israel-right-or-wrong" crowd don't really want to debate, they want to shut people up.

As far as webfusion is concerned, go ahead and take his information with a grain of salt, but don't dismiss it. I've taken your side, politically, but you've bent over backwards to discredit his input, and I call foul. His thoughts on this forum regarding Palestinian rights, or any apparent racism he might betray, have no bearing on the military/security arguments he's made. They're sound.

I haven't gone over backwards. You probably haven't followed other discussions on the subject here. What's the big deal about Webfusion's credibility? He's not the only partisan hack around here. He has used the same kind of demagogic arguments as the other partisan hacks. I don't find him less credible on this subject than, say, Skeptic. It's just that Webfusion seems to be the only one who actually cares that I don't find him credible, the other partisan hacks seem to not give a damn. But what the hell does he expect, after all the male bovine manure he said?

 

[Orwell]

In other news.



So let's go to the poll.

http://www.fafo.no/nyhet/pal-opinion-Dec05-tables.pdf

Specifically page 52 of 102 table 2.22. The title is "Support to Al Queda's bombings in the US and Europe".

65 Palestinians out of 100 said they "support" Al Queda's bombings in the US and Europe, 35 Palestinians out of 100 said they "oppose" Al Queda's bombings in the US and Europe.

I am not making this up.

Are you actually trying to argue that those dumb opinions justify human rights abuses against Palestinian civilians?

 

[Skeptic]

Are you actually trying to argue that those dumb opinions justify human rights abuses against Palestinian civilians?

He is trying to argue that saving israeli lives does.

 

[Giz]

Are you actually trying to argue that those dumb opinions justify human rights abuses against Palestinian civilians?

So how would you defend Israeli civilians from terror attacks? How would you stop the militants from launching rockets? Would you:

1) do nothing
2) send in israeli police to arrest them inside PA territory
3) send in the IDF to arrest/clobber them inside PA territory
4) ask the PA to arrest them (nb, this is similar to option 1)
5) air/artillery strike as accurately as possible, but knowing there may well be some civilian casualties

If you have a plan, then please share it. As it is I am disposed to regards the IDF responses as the "lesser of the evils".

 

[Orwell]

Orwell, I'm curious, what 'bigoted statements' can you cite from my previous postings?

Webfusion on IDF killings of Palestinian civilians:

Screw that. Screw them, and screw the civilians who think they can go out to the streets of gaza, or ramallah or damascus or beirut and cheer the terrorists as heros, with no penalties or deterrance facing them from any quarter.

 

[Orwell]

He is trying to argue that saving israeli lives does.

Let me get this straight: you're saying that saving Israeli lives justifies human rights abuses against Palestinians, is that what you are saying?

 

[Mycroft]

Webfusion on IDF killings of Palestinian civilians:

Screw that. Screw them, and screw the civilians who think they can go out to the streets of gaza, or ramallah or damascus or beirut and cheer the terrorists as heros, with no penalties or deterrance facing them from any quarter.

How is it bigoted to be angry at people who cheer terrorists?

 

[Mycroft]

Let me get this straight: you're saying that saving Israeli lives justifies human rights abuses against Palestinians, is that what you are saying?

Wouldn't you?

 

[Skeptic]

Orwell: we keep hearing from you about Palestinian civil rights. How about israeli civil rights? Do israeli citizens have a right not to be bombed by terrorists?

 

[Skeptic]

Let me get this straight: you're saying that saving Israeli lives justifies human rights abuses against Palestinians, is that what you are saying?

Absolutely.
100%.
Give the man a cigar.
Ding dign ding ding ding!!!!

Ain't I just horrid?