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Does Matter Really Exist?

Yes, the list of reasons why the Brain/TV analogy is worthless is quite lengthy and easily countered, yet still the dualists tend to use the "signal" business with great frequency. But at least you got your excercise today.
As one who has used the Brain/TV analogy let me come to its defense, sort of. You are correct, the analogy fails for many reasons. However it does demonstrate the possibility that the brain could function in conjunction with another force (? a signal isn't per se a force but I can't think of a better word at the moment.)

In any event I think the TV demonstrates the possibility that our mind, like the TV, could be more than the physical components we can examine under a microscope.

That being said there is zero evidence that there is anything besides the protein and chemical based computer residing in our cranium. There is not even a hypotheses as to what that something else could be or how it would function or interact with the brain.

The status so far is just conjecture. Lacking a testable hypothesis it is currently a dead end.
 
Yes, it is enough to believe that other minds exists, in context with what I was saying.

Not if you want to prove something to someone, because an assumption is not worth much. If you don't, however, it's just a matter of philosophy.

If it's as good as you say it is (I actually don't remember you bringing this up), it probably explains a lot about the physical processes of the brain but, little or nothing about "the signal" that the brain is processing.

That's irrelevant. The point is, your consciousness, in every way, can be altered by various factors. In fact, someone's beliefs and personnality can be radically altered by simple chemical imbalances. If there were a soul, separate from the physical, you'd expect SOME of the mind's processes to be immune to this. It's clearly not the case.

Again:
http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/ghost.html

Do you even have proof that this is actually so? Not outside of what you think is so.

All I'm saying, is that you have no way to KNOW that you are not programmed to BELIEVE that you are sentient.

I remain unconvinced by your arguments, and forever will.

That's one of the most honest things you've ever said, though by the same token you admit beign close-minded and biased.

The sky is blue. That is merely an observation. What is there to deduce?

That's not the same thing. Saying that the bible is the word of God is not a simple observation. It requires other assumptions, which, in the example I provided, it also attempts to prove, which is circular.

As if to say logic is not a part of one's belief process?

No, it's not. Logic is universal. There is no belief about it: it's a mathematical set of rules. Look it up.

What are you trying to say, besides twist things around with your logic? I understand that you and I believe separate things.

There is no such thing as MY logic. Logic is universal. Look it up.

How so? If everything is encoded with information that tells it how to behave (even prior to the Big Bang), where does that information come from?

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/vic_stenger/otherside.html

Reading does wonderful things to your mind, Iacchus.
 
Iacchus said:
Then what you're suggesting is that there's a big void between our ears ... in other words nothing.

No. He's saying that there is nothing metaphysical about it.

Which is to say there is no such thing as "conscious experience?" Please ... When I am conscious, the last thing I'm aware of is this so-called brain of yours that produces it. The two are not one and the same. In fact when "the signal" is cut off (via the inputs into the brain), the brain no longer produces anything.

More drivel. You conclude that the brain stops transmitting when the spirit stops transmitting ? More like the reverse, methinks.

And, unless you believe something can from nothing, how can you conclude otherwise?

If nothing can come from nothing, how could God make something out of nothing ?

Iacchus said:
The sky is blue. I will forever remain convinced that this is so. Unless of course someone can convince me that "I" (the part that witnesses the sky is blue) don't exist.

Well, people. I've just learned something real nice, today. When Iacchus dies, the sky will probably change colour.

Iacchus said:
What is information, and where does it come from? Isn't this what defines everything and tells it what to do?

I'm not sure a law as simple as conservation of energy, which isn't a law per se, but rather what you'd expect, can be considered information.

So, doesn't it make sense that, at the very least, information existed prior to the Big Bang?

Prior ? When the HELL are you going to understand that there is no such thing as PRIOR to the big bang ?
 
From Swedenborg's notion that there is an affiliation between like minds in heaven ...

In other words heaven reflects the greater mind, of which each individual mind (or angel) shares a similar (thought-based) reality as those who are in closest affiliation to it. So there is in fact a sharing of thoughts in heaven.

Can you give us one good reason we should believe anything Swedenborg said, and why the above quotation is any more reasonable than his contention that he journeyed to different planets and personally spoke with their inhabitants, including the occupants of Mars and the Moon? I seem to recall reading that the latter communicated by a combination of borborygmi and flatulence. Is nothing too silly or zany or downright insane for you?



Iacchus: Sound, no raster!

 
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As one who has used the Brain/TV analogy let me come to its defense, sort of. You are correct, the analogy fails for many reasons. However it does demonstrate the possibility that the brain could function in conjunction with another force (? a signal isn't per se a force but I can't think of a better word at the moment.)
It demonstrates no such thing. It suggests it, but totally without evidence. Unless you are talking about our sensory apparatus. Yes, they receive EM waves, sound waves, chemical recognition et. al., but not anything like the way a TV works.

In any event I think the TV demonstrates the possibility that our mind, like the TV, could be more than the physical components we can examine under a microscope.
Are you suggesting metaphysical components? Signals are physical. If they are real, then the must be potentially detectable by non-mental means, just as sound, light, smells and other sensory inputs are.

That being said there is zero evidence that there is anything besides the protein and chemical based computer residing in our cranium. There is not even a hypotheses as to what that something else could be or how it would function or interact with the brain.
Ah. Back from the dark side. Glad to see it.

The status so far is just conjecture. Lacking a testable hypothesis it is currently a dead end.
For you it is conjecture. For some, it is evidently faith. But although you seem to be postulating some kind of not-yet-discovered communication, Iacchus and others are postulating a superhuman transmitter. I seriously doubt you are in that camp.
 
It demonstrates no such thing. It suggests it, but totally without evidence.
Thank you, yes. Careless choice of words.

Are you suggesting metaphysical components? Signals are physical. If they are real, then the must be potentially detectable by non-mental means, just as sound, light, smells and other sensory inputs are.
I don't know. It seems possible if unlikely that there could be forces or signals or something that is physical that we have not yet discovered. I lean more to the unknown-natural and physical as opposed to metaphysical.

For you it is conjecture. For some, it is evidently faith. But although you seem to be postulating some kind of not-yet-discovered communication, Iacchus and others are postulating a superhuman transmitter. I seriously doubt you are in that camp.
That is correct. Of course years of discussing mind/brain on this forum have helped me better understand the issue. Much thanks to Stimpy, Mercutio and many others I can't even think of at the moment who were patient with me and engaged me in discussion. Of course I also credit UCE, WIN and Franko because they helped me understand that side of the debate better than I had before I came to the forum. There is value to drawing conclusions after making sprited arguments and considering good arguments from both sides. And yes, I do think that UCE, WIN and Franko made some good arguments even if they didn't carry the day in my opinion.
 
Thank you, yes. Careless choice of words.

I don't know. It seems possible if unlikely that there could be forces or signals or something that is physical that we have not yet discovered. I lean more to the unknown-natural and physical as opposed to metaphysical.
I certainly agree that there may be many natural phenomena which are not yet discovered. I think there has also been discussion as to whether or not undiscovered phenomena are eligible for the Randi Million. (Probably not as the JREF is not a scientific organization and does not do research.)

That is correct. Of course years of discussing mind/brain on this forum have helped me better understand the issue. Much thanks to Stimpy, Mercutio and many others I can't even think of at the moment who were patient with me and engaged me in discussion. Of course I also credit UCE, WIN and Franko because they helped me understand that side of the debate better than I had before I came to the forum.
My feelings exactly. I have learned much here, including troll control. Not that UCE/Geoff was a troll, but he did have a certain... er... persistance to his debating style. Ah, the old days...
 
As one who has used the Brain/TV analogy let me come to its defense, sort of. You are correct, the analogy fails for many reasons. However it does demonstrate the possibility that the brain could function in conjunction with another force (? a signal isn't per se a force but I can't think of a better word at the moment.)

In any event I think the TV demonstrates the possibility that our mind, like the TV, could be more than the physical components we can examine under a microscope.

That being said there is zero evidence that there is anything besides the protein and chemical based computer residing in our cranium. There is not even a hypotheses as to what that something else could be or how it would function or interact with the brain.

The status so far is just conjecture. Lacking a testable hypothesis it is currently a dead end.
One last thought (hope springs eternal...) about the television analogy. In dissecting a television, we can find the components which pick up the signal. We may not understand them at first, but through careful experimentation, we can understand their function even if we do not understand their structure, and of course in the real world we understand their structure too. We see, both functionally and structurally, devices which are sensitive to a particular band of wavelengths in the electromagnetic spectrum.

What we do not see in this dissection is, say, a means for television sets to pick up x-rays, or gamma radiation, or ultraviolet or even most visible light (if it has a remote, it may pick up infrared, though). We see, both functionally (when we aim x-rays at it, it does not act differently) and structurally (we know what each component does, and there is none left to serve as x-ray sensor), that it does not pick up x-rays, gamma rays, yadda yadda yadda. Indeed, there are no unknown left-over parts to pick up unknown left-over signals of any sort.

Same with our brains. We understand them both functionally and structurally, at least to the extent that we can be certain that there is no physical component sensitive to signals of any sort other than the senses we already know. We know how vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, balance, kinesthetic senses send signals to the brain; we know where they are processed, we know what energies are transduced, we know characteristics both of the energies and of the signals produced (either of which, alone, would be enough to either structurally or functionally demonstrate the action of this sort of signal).

There has been no demonstration of any reaction to an unknown signal. There has been no demonstration of any unknown sensory pathway.
There would be fame and fortune for any researcher who discovers either of these; within sensation/perception research, even minor discoveries make major names, tenure, grants, endowements....

We have looked for such things for over a century. They aren't there.

The television set analogy is very apt. It quite clearly shows that there is no "consciousness signal" being picked up by the brain. We know exactly how to demonstrate it if it were there, and we have every motivation to do so. The only thing missing is one shred of evidence that the consciousness signal exists at all.
 
There has been no demonstration of any reaction to an unknown signal. There has been no demonstration of any unknown sensory pathway.
There would be fame and fortune for any researcher who discovers either of these; within sensation/perception research, even minor discoveries make major names, tenure, grants, endowements....

We have looked for such things for over a century. They aren't there.

The television set analogy is very apt. It quite clearly shows that there is no "consciousness signal" being picked up by the brain. We know exactly how to demonstrate it if it were there, and we have every motivation to do so. The only thing missing is one shred of evidence that the consciousness signal exists at all.
No question that it would seem that if there were a mechanism between an "unknown signal", then we would have likely found it.

They aren't there.
This is a position that I won't take. Further I don't think it wise to take such a position. Absolute knowledge is not very conducive to scientific inquiry. I prefer, at present, lacking any evidence to support that there is an unknown signal or phenomenon (thanks Tricky) then there is no reason to suppose that they are there.
 
Might I suggest, Randfan, that given the state of knowledge about our sensory apparatus, your position is similar to that of the child who has been cleaning the manure out of a stable, is down to the last cubic foot of horsesh!t, and grows excited at the prospect that perhaps there is a pony in there.

At this point, not only is there no reason to suppose that there is something there, but we know enough about the brain to assert that if there was something there, our accumulated knowledge over the last century is wrong.

Or do you think that television sets still could possibly be receiving X-rays, but we just don't know it? (I leave the "possibly" in to match your position.) We have thoroughly searched that room--time to shut the door and move on. Whether or not we know everything there is to know about it, we do know that there is no mechanism that acts as a consciousness receiver.
 
Might I suggest, Randfan, that given the state of knowledge about our sensory apparatus, your position is similar to that of the child who has been cleaning the manure out of a stable, is down to the last cubic foot of horsesh!t, and grows excited at the prospect that perhaps there is a pony in there.
Well, there could be a pony there. A very small one.

I agree that it is not reasonable to believe that there is some as-yet-undiscovered receiver in the brain, because the more we find out about the brain, the more we understand that virtually every function it performs is self-contained. To propose that this unidirectional trend will reverse is the height of... well... not optimism, but perhaps intellectual generosity. But unlikely as it is, it is still a non-zero possibility. As such, it does not justify examination when placed among so many more productive lines of thinking, but fairness compels me to not make statements of certainty.
 
So let's say we discover that there IS a receiver in there, and the source of mind is not physically within the brain.

So what? All we've done is establish that mind is elsewhere. How does the mind function? Where IS it located?
 
So let's say we discover that there IS a receiver in there, and the source of mind is not physically within the brain.

So what? All we've done is establish that mind is elsewhere. How does the mind function? Where IS it located?
Let's wait until we've met your premise, before asking for details.

I won't hold my breath.
 
Well, there could be a pony there. A very small one.

I agree that it is not reasonable to believe that there is some as-yet-undiscovered receiver in the brain, because the more we find out about the brain, the more we understand that virtually every function it performs is self-contained. To propose that this unidirectional trend will reverse is the height of... well... not optimism, but perhaps intellectual generosity. But unlikely as it is, it is still a non-zero possibility. As such, it does not justify examination when placed among so many more productive lines of thinking, but fairness compels me to not make statements of certainty.

Ok, let's put it in terms of your tax money sponsoring research. How big is this non-zero possibility? I don't want any of my money (or yours, or anyone's frankly) wasted on running manure through a sieve looking for microscopic ponies.

Sorry--there is a practical point in science when we quit having to answer a question. We closed the door on phlogiston, we can close this door too.
 
Ok, let's put it in terms of your tax money sponsoring research. How big is this non-zero possibility? I don't want any of my money (or yours, or anyone's frankly) wasted on running manure through a sieve looking for microscopic ponies.
I'd say let the funding match the possibility. So just to round up, I wouldn't object to spending, oh, let's say, one cent for tinypony/brain-receiver research and just agree that though it is still a possibility, it is not worth investigating in any more depth than that.

Sorry--there is a practical point in science when we quit having to answer a question. We closed the door on phlogiston, we can close this door too.
Practical, yes. Absolute, no.
 
Let's wait until we've met your premise, before asking for details.
My point is that even if the mind is somehow not found in the brain, it's still a physical thing, and it's still subject to the constraints of physics, mathematics, and logic. It doesn't make any difference if "mind" is in the heart, liver, brain, or currently-incomprehensible energy-structure.
 
So let's say we discover that there IS a receiver in there, and the source of mind is not physically within the brain.

So what? All we've done is establish that mind is elsewhere. How does the mind function? Where IS it located?
If, (and as Merc correctly points out, it is a gigantic "if") such a thing were discovered, then in order to know that it was a receiver, we would also have to know what it was receiving, otherwise,we could not identify it as a reciever rather than a generator. If we can identify what it is receiving, then we must have discovered/developed a brain signal detector. With a brain signal detector available, we could place little "brain radar" dishes around the brain and identify the source direction of the signal. By doing this for numerous brains, we could determine if the source is coming from a predominant direction or was arriving at random. If we could isolate a direction, we could in principle track it down and establish its location and how it works.

I strongly encourage the scientific community to implement just such a plan the instant a mind signal receiver is discovered in the brain.
 

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