[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[Emily's Cat]

It's exactly the TRA talking points. The only difference is it's written by someone who "identifies" as a PhD.

I think there are some material differences. In particular...

3. People considering transition have the right to receive from their health care providers all information pertaining to their decision regarding whether, how, and when to transition.
This includes medical benefits and risks, cosmetic possibilities and limitations, plain-language description about rates of regret among those who transition, and any factors that might affect that risk.

The TRA approach denies that regret should be discussed, or that detransition is a concern. They push a narrative of puberty blockers being harmless and perfectly reversible, when that is not the case. They also claim that cross-sex hormones aren't dangerous... and I've even seen some TRAs make the idiotic claim that cross-sex hormones have reversible effects, which they most definitely do not.

6. Transsexual individuals have the right, during transition, to access sex-specific public facilities in which their contrary genital status would not be evident.
For example, for the great majority of instances, a presurgical male-to-female transsexual presenting as female can use a female-designated restroom unobtrusively. Only in few instances, such as public showers, would a mismatch between the sex-designation of the facility and person’s preoperative status be an issue. In such instances, an alternative should be available, in the same spirit that public facilities are responsible for providing for the needs of individuals with mobility impairments.

The TRA position is that transgender people should have access to ALL sex-segregated areas on the basis of their gender identity, REGARDLESS of their genital status. In fact, the TRA position has led to outcomes like teenage girls in Washington being told that if they're uncomfortable being exposed to a transwoman's naked penis in their showers, they need to shower elsewhere. That position has also led to high school girls in Illlinois being told that they have not right to visual privacy from a male-bodied transgirl in their locker rooms. The TRA position strongly opposes the alternative of a separate room for transgender individuals to use.

 

[Belz...]

What makes Cantor pseudo-intellectual, but the researchers you agree with not?

I suspect I answered my own question . . .

I suspect that's why I didn't get an answer to the same question.

 

[Belz...]

I'd entirely agree that there's a discussion to be had around which rights should be extended to transgender people, and which should not.

No, no, no. One cannot have "degrees of support" for transgender rights. I got this form a source you consider to be infaillible.

 

[Belz...]

I feel like I'm being gaslit here.

Identical request and argument made by one group of posters: hysterical, transphobic, overreacting, nonsense, etc.

Same thing from a different group of posters: considered and moderate and worth having a discussion about.

What is the difference between those two groups of posters... anyone have any observations to toss in here?

I have no idea. Theprestige is way to the right of myself and, I suspect, you. He should be far more reviled by John.

But then nothing about this discussion makes any sense.

 

[Belz...]

So he founded the ideological campaign that he now claims is persecuting him.

Cantor is singly responsible for the worldwide tide of transphobia. If not for him, this thread wouldn't exist. And you knew this all along and didn't see fit to tell us.

You know... now I'm starting to think that you keep calling other people conspiracy theorists because you're projecting.

 

[Collin237]

What makes Cantor pseudo-intellectual, but the researchers you agree with not?

I suspect I answered my own question . . .

Yes, you did. The research I agree with (or even consider whether I agree with) isn't attached to the self-promotion of the author.

 

[Belz...]

It's exactly the TRA talking points. The only difference is it's written by someone who "identifies" as a PhD.

Well that should be embraced by the postmodernists, here!

 

[theprestige]

I once read an illustrated history of postmodernism. Like a cross between a comic book and a "For Dummies" guide. It was quite entertaining, cited its references, and seemed to do a good job of explaining things. Or at least, it left me thinking that if the book had gotten anything wrong, postermodernists were the last people to have any standing to complain about it.

 

[Collin237]

You know... now I'm starting to think that you keep calling other people conspiracy theorists because you're projecting.

Whatever gets you through the night.

As for me, I think I've found the answer I came here looking for.

 

[Belz...]

Whatever gets you through the night.

I really don't understand your thing. Your profile says 2015 and yet I don't seem to have a memory of discussing with you before. You seem to approach every discussion with a hint of disdain and belligerence... I can't quite grasp why.

As for me, I think I've found the answer I came here looking for.

I suspect you had the answer beforehand.

 

[sarge]

What you may be failing to notice is that if someone, for example, expresses opinions such as:

"I am all in favour of transgender rights. But I won't have transwomen in women's changing rooms"

or

"I am all in favour of transgender rights. But I won't have transgirls in high school competing in the girls' sporting events"

or

"I am all in favour of transgender rights. But I won't have transwomen being eligible for women's quotas"


..... then those opinions are, I'm afraid, effectively transphobic in nature (in spite of the overt declarations of support up front).


And, BTW, one cannot have "degrees of support" for transgender rights. One either supports transgender rights, or one does not.

That'd be like saying "I have a varying degree of support for black civil rights: I'm fine with most of it, but I'll be damned if black people will be allowed to eat in the same restaurants as me".

Complete nonsense. You are attempting to define as rights things that you say trans people want the privilege of doing.

There is no right for a male to be nude in front of non-consenting females. There is no right for males to compete in female only sports. There is no right for males to represent the views of females in sex-specific representative situations.

 

[xjx388]

Yes, you did. The research I agree with (or even consider whether I agree with) isn't attached to the self-promotion of the author.

You are missing the point. I see no problem with Cantor’s credentials. A PhD is a PhD. Why is Cantor’s PhD less valid than the ones possessed by the authors you agree with?

 

[Aber]

What is the difference between those two groups of posters... anyone have any observations to toss in here?

Middle aged male lawyers don't like losing an argument, even when they've not bothered to do any serious research and formed an opinion that is internally inconsistent. May just try to bluster through as they do in real life.

 

[Collin237]

You are missing the point. I see no problem with Cantor’s credentials. A PhD is a PhD. Why is Cantor’s PhD less valid than the ones possessed by the authors you agree with?

The articles I agreed with had substance; I agreed with what they hypothesized. I didn't even notice who the authors were.

Cantor's articles are about what Cantor, specifically, said and did. They're centered around him as a person, not his theory.

Cantor seems like more of a celebrity than a researcher.

 

[Elaedith]

The articles I agreed with had substance; I agreed with what they hypothesized. I didn't even notice who the authors were.

Cantor's articles are about what Cantor, specifically, said and did. They're centered around him as a person, not his theory.

Cantor seems like more of a celebrity than a researcher.

There is a list of Cantor's publications at the bottom of this page:

http://www.jamescantor.org/research.html

Perhaps you could point out which articles you read, and in what way they are about him.

 

[caveman1917]

Please exercise some good-faith explicitness, and frame your comments as "prepubescent kids shouldn't medically transition". And even then, many of us think that some exceptions should be allowed.

Yes, evidence-based exceptions though. Not based on logical fallacies in lieu of evidence as Earthborn keeps pushing. Prescribing puberty blockers (or any other such treatment) to a gender-dysphoric child requires an evidence-based reason that this particular child is much more likely to be a trans kid than a confused gay kid. Absent such evidence-based reason the prior probability of about an 80-20 chance against the kid being trans applies. You can't just randomly prescribe puberty blockers to a cohort that consists mostly of just confused gay kids.

 

[Belz...]

Complete nonsense. You are attempting to define as rights things that you say trans people want the privilege of doing.

There is no right for a male to be nude in front of non-consenting females. There is no right for males to compete in female only sports. There is no right for males to represent the views of females in sex-specific representative situations.

I want 10% of everything to be made for left-handed people. Disagree? You're against leftie rights!

 

[Belz...]

The articles I agreed with had substance

That sounds like a dodge. You know, a vague answer, unfalsifiable and with, how should I say.... no substance.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

The TRA position is that transgender people should have access to ALL sex-segregated areas on the basis of their gender identity, REGARDLESS of their genital status. In fact, the TRA position has led to outcomes like teenage girls in Washington being told that if they're uncomfortable being exposed to a transwoman's naked penis in their showers, they need to shower elsewhere. That position has also led to high school girls in Illlinois being told that they have not right to visual privacy from a male-bodied transgirl in their locker rooms. The TRA position strongly opposes the alternative of a separate room for transgender individuals to use.

This is untrue. The transwoman was in a sauna, which was a secluded area off-limits to the group that was permitted to use the swimming facilities. The narrative peddled by the bigots at the ADF, that this trans woman was deliberately strutting about to show off her genitalia to children, is a total fiction meant only to drum up hatred against trans people.

It should be known that the girls swim team was the guest of Evergreen college, meanwhile the transwoman being harassed was a student at the university. Seems pretty clear to me that a student of a college should get more accommodation than some unrelated swim club that rents time from the college.

Allowing these guests to use another locker room was a very measured solution from the college. Outright revoking the high school swim team's access, in response to a harassment campaign against a trans student of the university, would have been well within their rights.

This is how the anti-trans bigot machine works. A false story vilifying trans people is breathlessly reported and repeated until it is accepted as true.

Reporting from an outlet that actually contacted Evergreen college to get the details, rather than credulously running the narrative presented by the ADF.

https://www.transadvocate.com/colleen-francis-and-the-infamous-evergreen-state-college-incident_n_10765.htm

 

[LondonJohn]

Bull. I'm not denying the validity of the transgender identity. I'm denying the idea that this identity magically changes fundamental aspects of biology or imbues the individual with some essence that makes them "woman" or "man."

I accept that transgendered people really do identify as the other sex and that this identification causes problems for them that we need to address. I do not accept that this means that they actually become the other sex with all the physical and social implications or that we can actually address every problem the condition creates.

Transgender people identify as a different gender, not sex (the clue is in the name "transgender"). And it's now agreed by the experts that gender is different from sex.

So no, identifying as transgender doesn't "magically change fundamental aspects of biology", and nor does it need to in order to be valid.

In the view of the world's accredited experts in the relevant fields, and to paraphrase this thread's title: transwomen are women (and transmen are men)

The way you appear currently to categorise/accommodate transgender people is similar to, say, how you'd categorise/accommodate a middle-aged male who believed themselves to be a baby: you'd try to accommodate the condition, while still knowing that the person in question wasn't actually a baby.

In the case of a middle-aged male considering themselves to be a baby, the experts deem that to be a delusion - the product of a mental health disorder.

In the case of transgender people, the experts now deem that to be a valid lived condition - not the product of a mental health disorder.

That would be the crucial difference.