[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[d4m10n]

With regard to transgender identity, nobody...is suggesting that women should have to put up with being around men in restrooms.

Which restroom would you suggest for Seani (an untransitioned male who identifies as a woman)?

 

[theprestige]

I had been specifically (and very obviously*) responding to one particular part of a prior post of Earthborn's, which said (my bolding for emphasis):





* because I wrote my response immediately below the quoted part of Earthborn's post which I've reproduced here....

You're claiming the mundane process of developing muscle mass through diet and exercise.

Earthborn appears to be suggesting a process by which the development of biological sex can be influenced by social pressure.

 

[Collin237]

Except that the post I responded to was still YOUR argument. If there's more to it than that, then why did you imply there wasn't?

I thought the distinction between innate and culturally contingent tendencies was obvious. Oh well, xjx883 didn't understand me either.

 

[Collin237]

Which restroom would you suggest for Seani (an untransitioned male who identifies as a woman)?

You're asking him to "suggest" which restroom someone uses? What evidence do you have that it's become anyone's business?

 

[Belz...]

With regard to transgender identity, nobody* is suggesting that women should have to put up with being around men in restrooms.

You know exactly what I mean. Don't be coy.

 

[Belz...]

I thought the distinction between innate and culturally contingent tendencies was obvious. Oh well, xjx883 didn't understand me either.

When no one understands you, maybe the fault is yours. How about you clarify yourself, then?

 

[Collin237]

When no one understands you, maybe the fault is yours. How about you clarify yourself, then?

Please see #1587.

 

[d4m10n]

You're asking him to "suggest" which restroom someone uses?

Yes, I assume he has an opinion on the matter.

 

[Belz...]

Please see #1587.

I have no idea how that clarifies anything about #1552.

 

[Collin237]

I have no idea how that clarifies anything about #1552.

Do you believe that xjx883 (or whoever it was) has expressed a belief that sexual orientation is innate? If so, what do you believe he means by it?

 

[Belz...]

Do you believe that xjx883 (or whoever it was) has expressed a belief that sexual orientation is innate? If so, what do you believe he means by it?

Xjx's not the one I'm asking clarification from.

 

[TomB]

Why? What possible benefit would abandoning a long-standing practice that works for 99.7% of humans have?



Yes, let's eliminate women's sports entirely by sending in males to dominate their various disciplines. Sounds like a great feminist idea!

One thing that stands out to me4 is that I've seen arguments for why various things should be segregated by sex. And I've seen arguments for why it would be beneficial for trans-individuals to participate with the other 97% of the people who share their gender as an argument for converting sex-segregation to gender segregation. But I've yet to see an argument outlining why something should be segregated by gender.

 

[Meadmaker]

One thing that stands out to me4 is that I've seen arguments for why various things should be segregated by sex. And I've seen arguments for why it would be beneficial for trans-individuals to participate with the other 97% of the people who share their gender as an argument for converting sex-segregation to gender segregation. But I've yet to see an argument outlining why something should be segregated by gender.

(Emphasis added)

I just wanted to emphasize that, because I think that it's rather critical.

In one of my recent posts, I made the case that if we adopt the proposed vocabulary in which "man" and "woman" refer to gender, not sex, that we should also rename sports divisions to "male" and "female", because the motivation for having the separate divisions is clearly and obviously based on sex, not gender.

Is there any activity which needs to be segregated based on gender?

 

[Belz...]

One thing that stands out to me4 is that I've seen arguments for why various things should be segregated by sex. And I've seen arguments for why it would be beneficial for trans-individuals to participate with the other 97% of the people who share their gender as an argument for converting sex-segregation to gender segregation. But I've yet to see an argument outlining why something should be segregated by gender.

That's 99.7%. You were off by an order of magnitude.

It all depends on how we define "gender", really. And as I said before it seems by design that we never do. I don't really accept the proposed redefining of the terms, such as it is, because there's no benefit except to call males "women" and females "men" in certain oulying cases. As far as I'm concerned "trans women" and "trans men" is just fine, and leave the segregation (in most cases) as it is: by sex.

 

[TomB]

You're asking him to "suggest" which restroom someone uses? What evidence do you have that it's become anyone's business?

The signs on the door that indicate that a particular restroom is designated for a certain segment of the population suggest that there is some public interest in which facilities people use. (If there is no public interest, then why do we have segregated facilities to begin with?)

The point of the Seani example is that they claim to identify as a woman, but present as male in dress, haircut, beard, etc. (Every way that is observable to others.) So the visual of them entering a restroom is the same as for me entering a restroom...except I don't have a beard. So if Seani uses the facilities they identify with, as far as everyone else in the room is concerned, it is no different than if I were in there instead. If that's acceptable, what is the point of segregated bathrooms, because you no one can tell who is a woman and who is a man and who is lying anyway?

Now, Seani is an extreme example, but apparently trans-people who do not wish to transition (or rather wish to transition in pronouns and changing rooms only) do exist.

 

[d4m10n]

Is there any activity which needs to be segregated based on gender?

Clothing racks and perhaps associated changing rooms?

 

[Meadmaker]

Clothing racks and perhaps associated changing rooms?

Two very different examples, actually, at least unless there is adequate privacy in the changing rooms that one can be certain that no one will be seen in a state of undress where they don't want to be seen.


I thought of my own example and I found myself thinking of quite a few examples of activity that are separated by gender. The first, and probably best, example I came up with is a sewing circle. In particular, I thought of a group of friends who would regularly hold a "stitch and bitch" session. There wasn't an actual rule that no men were allowed, but it was unstated that it was only for women, and everyone knew that the point of it wasn't really to complete those embroidery projects. It was to get together with the girls and talk about whatever it is that they talk about when we aren't around. The presence of a man would fundamentally change the social dynamics of the "stitch and bitch".

Note: I'm using "man" and words above in the modern, gender-oriented, sense. If there was a woman who happened to be a male present at the "stitch and bitch", it wouldn't disrupt the dynamics so long as the male actually behaved like a woman and was accepted as such by the participants.


But, that example, and every other one I thought of, were purely private functions. There were no laws associated with the "stitch and bitch", or at a bachelor party, or wherever.

In the past, a lot of workplaces were very gender oriented. It was felt that a woman just wouldn't be appropriate in some work environments. At the time, they didn't realize they were also segregating by sex, but people who were not sufficiently "manly" weren't always welcomed there, regardless of sex. I think everyone here would agree that it is a good thing that laws have been passed that outlaw such workplace segregation today, whether that segregation is based on sex or on gender, and whether that segregation is official policy or unofficial practice.


In terms of things that are segregated by law or by government policy, I could not come up with a reason to segregate by gender, but perhaps someone else can explain the rationale for why such places or activities ought to exist.

 

[d4m10n]

Two very different examples, actually, at least unless there is adequate privacy in the changing rooms that one can be certain that no one will be seen in a state of undress where they don't want to be seen.

That's how changing rooms work in the dept. stores I've visited; cubicles are designed for single occupant use.

 

[Meadmaker]

That's how changing rooms work in the dept. stores I've visited; cubicles are designed for single occupant use.

A lot of them, though, have doors that don't go all the way to the floor or ceiling, mirrors that are placed in positions that aren't designed for privacy, and other ways that would make it easy to "peep".

In other words, they aren't actually exposed, but they are sufficiently vulnerable to view that generally a man would not be allowed into a woman's dressing room to try on clothes in most of them. The question before us is whether the exclusion of certain people should be based on their sex (i.e. because they are male), or their gender, (i.e. because they are men).

 

[Cainkane1]

Because genitals do not determine gender, as I have stated before. A female/woman can have a penis and a male/man can have a vulva.

I disagree. Even though a person may be born male or female and think of themselves as the sex opposite to what it says on their birth certificate they are still male or female whether they like it or not. Ellen aka Elliot Page for example is a woman whether she likes it or not.