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The reaction to my comment is kinda eyebrow raising tbh.

Don't agree with trespassing = it's ok to kill people for doing it and I'm digging out my swastika and luger.

Yeah, it's weird. I think it's always fair game to discuss the peripheral issues that come up, even if they have no impact on the main story. Whether or not Georgia's gun laws, for instance, allowed for "at the ready" carrying. It makes no real difference in terms of Arbery being murdered, but it's more of an "adding to body of knowledge" kind of thing.
 
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The reaction to my comment is kinda eyebrow raising tbh.

Don't agree with trespassing = it's ok to kill people for doing it and I'm digging out my swastika and luger.

When that is an argument people are legitimately making, it's probably a good idea to make it clear that you're not agreeing with it when you support one of the components of it.

Not that I think it matters once you have clarified, but it isn't unreasonable to make that association before you have. Probably should be just a simple question rather than a more strident engagement. Dealing with so many bad faith arguments has eroded many otherwise good practices there.
 
When that is an argument people are legitimately making, it's probably a good idea to make it clear that you're not agreeing with it when you support one of the components of it.

Not that I think it matters once you have clarified, but it isn't unreasonable to make that association before you have. Probably should be just a simple question rather than a more strident engagement. Dealing with so many bad faith arguments has eroded many otherwise good practices there.

Yeah, this^
 
...

Having a look is one thing, going out of your way to wander inside someone else's part-built property is something else. Yes, I find it strange. ....
I find it strange that you find it strange. Many of my neighbors also poke around the new homes during construction; we're all curious.
 
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Yeah I do, I don't see what the fascination is. As regards your your no sign, do you have a no trespassing sign on your property? Would have thought it's common knowledge you're not allowed to just go wandering around other peoples property without their consent.
According to my next door neighbor, they believe one has to have a no trespassing sign to keep solicitors away as a no solicitors sign is only a suggestion.

Pretty much in places like a home under construction it has to be 'posted'.
 
Yes, it's illegal to trespass. But as far as crimes go, trespass is often one of those where they often just tell you to get lost, and trespass on a construction site is the lite version of that.
 
I've often looked at construction sites if the area isn't fenced. (Which they should be for liability protection IMO.)

A friend of mine, white guy, went out to his garage very early one morning and was met by a stranger aiming a shotgun at him. My friend's instinctive reaction was to grab the barrel of the gun and swing it away from him. My friend got beaten with the shotgun, but he didn't get shot.

Grabbing the barrel of a gun is IMO a risky tactic, but it might seem like the only option if you're boxed in and don't want to trust in the mercy or basic humanity of your wannabe captors. Did he even know what their beef was?
 
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We need to get this nailed down.

How can we know if his execution was justified if we can't even decide on whether it's ok to enter a construction site?
 
I'm a building contractor, and on new construction, if the site is quiet and open, people stroll in frequently to check things out. On remodels, where people are, or appear to be, living in the house, never.

I just got back from the job site and surprise surprise, there were no security cameras inside the house and no curious pedestrians walking around. There was a heavy steel locker for the general contractor to keep his tools in and locked up. Those types of lockers are very common on jobsites, mainly to keep the curious joggers from stealing people's stuff.
 
I just got back from the job site and surprise surprise, there were no security cameras inside the house and no curious pedestrians walking around. There was a heavy steel locker for the general contractor to keep his tools in and locked up. Those types of lockers are very common on jobsites, mainly to keep the curious joggers from stealing people's stuff.

Your anecdote about a single job site is wholly unimpressive! You seem to be the only person in this thread who claims to have never seen a curious onlooker or surveillance camera in a construction site... I wonder why that is.

ETA: And for your further education, how about this, the actual construction site in question. Surveillance footage of MULTIPLE people entering that exact site site on different occasions



Oops! That doesn't quite gel with your claims here does it.

Of course, I expect you will ignore or handwave away this actual evidence that your claim is FALSE because it doesn't fit your racist "******-boy bad" narrative!
 
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Seriously, what can you do in Georgia while Black?

I mean outside of picking cotton?
 
Seriously, what can you do in Georgia while Black?

I mean outside of picking cotton?

Trick question - black people can do as they please, some people will loudly insist that their 1890s lynch mob-justifying stereotypes and Birth of a Nation views on voting are correct regardless of what black people do.
 
Trick question - black people can do as they please, some people will loudly insist that their 1890s lynch mob-justifying stereotypes and Birth of a Nation views on voting are correct regardless of what black people do.

I certainly meant it as hyperbole. I can show you racist nutjobs up here in Washington State, but in the South mistreating people of color seems to be routine.
 
No.

Do you understand the concept of linear time?

Not-a-jogger Arbery wasn't "murdered" because he was trespassing. McMichael recognized him from security camera footage from a house that previously had property stolen from it, as Ahmuad "not-a-jogger" sprinted down the street from the same area as the house he was videoed trespassing in before.

The McMichaels gave chase.

The McMichaels drove past Ahmaud "not-a-jogger" Arbery and stopped to confront him.

Arbery then darted from 3 to 4 feet off of the right side of the road to near the center of the road in front of the McMichael's truck where he tried to grab a gun and was then shot.

He was killed because he tried to take someone's gun from them, not for trespassing.

I wish I could have a calm and reasonable conversation about this with you.

Sadly, even if you and I could manage it, you would be attacked from the audience, and you would shoot back. (no reference to the actual situation under discussion intended.)

It wouldn't have to be me, either. It could be with one of several other posters here who would be able to not try and escalate and insult in the process of the discussion. I would like to hear your perspective in a reasonable conversation.

So, I'll just put in my two cents, in much the same manner as everyone else, perhaps with a slightly different focus.

I agree with much of what you wrote above, and the areas of disagreement, the disagreements are rather small. Did he actually steal from that property, for example? I don't think that's established. Did they actually recognize him, or did they just think he was probably the guy? Those questions aren't really all that important.

But now we get to the important stuff. Was Arbery "killed because he tried to take someone's gun from them" I think that's a true statement. However, the statement that isn't present alters the meaning completely. What's missing is the statement that Travis McMichael pointed a loaded gun at Arbery. That missing statement makes all the difference. So while I agree with each individual statement, or have only slight disagreements with each individual statement, the collection of statements ends up being misleading because of what's omitted.


Legally, the fact that Travis McMichael pointed the gun turns it into a slam dunk case. You can't do that unless your own life is in danger, or in some cases if you are trying to protect your own property. There is absolutely zero chance that Travis McMichael had legal justification for pointing the gun at Mahmaud "no longer jogging or breathing" Arbery. Once the prosecution gets past that, Travis is done for. Roddy and dad are probably done for as well, although the case isn't quite as open and shut against them.

In my opinion, they don't have a moral case, either. I don't want to live in a world where private citizens go about threatening to kill people they suspect of petty crimes.

So, go ahead and try to convince us that Arbery was a bad person. I think you are probably right. He certainly was a troublemaker in his past, so the only question was whether he had gone straight, or at least mostly straight, by the time he was killed. Young men are like that sometimes. They are complete jerks as teenagers and young men, but one day they get a clue and become decent human beings. I have no idea whether or not Arbery had reached that point. He certainly will never have the opportunity to show it.

The important point is that it really doesn't matter. Whether Arbery is a good guy or a bad guy, I want people to use cameras to deter crime, not guns. I think Travis, and possible Greg and Roddy, should go to jail, and I am almost certain that Travis, at least, will be jailed, and I think it's likely that Greg and Roddy will, too. I know they were thinking they were doing the Lord's work, and I doubt Travis actually intended to kill Arbery when he pointed the gun at him, but I don't want people running around pointing guns. Someone could get hurt.

Take some pictures. Call the cops. Don't go all Rambo on us.
 
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I just got back from the job site and surprise surprise, there were no security cameras inside the house and no curious pedestrians walking around. There was a heavy steel locker for the general contractor to keep his tools in and locked up. Those types of lockers are very common on jobsites, mainly to keep the curious joggers from stealing people's stuff.

If you mean one of those tan Knaack boxes, yeah, you see them sometimes. I don't see the point on a SFD, though. Nobody is hanging around long enough to store tools there. After its framed, the roofer is in and out, same for plumber, electrician, etc, all of whom are subcontractors supplying their own tools anyway, and put them in their own trucks after work. I personally haven't seen a Knaack box on a site since doing condos.

This was a single family spot build, run by the owner being his own GC. I gather he was doing it cash, and the time was dragging along slowly. He had his personal stuff (boat, etc) mixed in on the site. So I can see a cheap camera setup if his dormant site got hit a couple times. I don't have them on my sites, but nothing stays laying around, either. Install and ******* GO.

Still makes no never mind. Say Arbery was not only casing the crib, but actually ran out with a Toto toilet in his waistband. Maybe some tasteful wainscot tile on his pockets for good measure. You still couldn't pull a gun on him for that, much less ventilate him.
 
Did he actually steal from that property, for example? I don't think that's established.

It has been established.

The owner says that nothing was missing.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/13/us/ahmaud-arbery-wednesday-surveillance-video/index.html

Did they actually recognize him, or did they just think he was probably the guy? Those questions aren't really all that important.

They had no idea who he was... he was just some darkie they done seen in the 'hood.

But now we get to the important stuff. Was Arbery "killed because he tried to take someone's gun from them" I think that's a true statement. However, the statement that isn't present alters the meaning completely. What's missing is the statement that Travis McMichael pointed a loaded gun at Arbery.

Its vital. It means McMichael was threatening Arbery with a firearm (which he had no right to do, legal or otherwise). It also means that Arbery was entitled to act in self defence.

That missing statement makes all the difference. So while I agree with each individual statement, or have only slight disagreements with each individual statement, the collection of statements ends up being misleading because of what's omitted.

100%

Legally, the fact that Travis McMichael pointed the gun turns it into a slam dunk case. You can't do that unless your own life is in danger, or in some cases if you are trying to protect your own property. There is absolutely zero chance that Travis McMichael had legal justification for pointing the gun at Mahmaud "no longer jogging or breathing" Arbery. Once the prosecution gets past that, Travis is done for.

Again 100%

Roddy and dad are probably done for as well, although the case isn't quite as open and shut against them.

In my opinion, they don't have a moral case, either. I don't want to live in a world where private citizens go about threatening to kill people they suspect of petty crimes.

Agreed!

So, go ahead and try to convince us that Arbery was a bad person. I think you are probably right. He certainly was a troublemaker in his past, so the only question was whether he had gone straight, or at least mostly straight, by the time he was killed. Young men are like that sometimes. They are complete jerks as teenagers and young men, but one day they get a clue and become decent human beings. I have no idea whether or not Arbery had reached that point. He certainly will never have the opportunity to show it.

If I was black, and living in Georgia when I was in my late teens, early 20's my chances seen my 30th birthday would have been less than optimal.

The important point is that it really doesn't matter. Whether Arbery is a good guy or a bad guy, I want people to use cameras to deter crime, not guns. I think Travis, and possible Greg and Roddy, should go to jail, and I am almost certain that Travis, at least, will be jailed, and I think it's likely that Greg and Roddy will, too. I know they were thinking they were doing the Lord's work, and I doubt Travis actually intended to kill Arbery when he pointed the gun at him, but I don't want people running around pointing guns. Someone could get hurt.

Take some pictures. Call the cops. Don't go all Rambo on us.

Yup, couldn't agree more
 
Still makes no never mind. Say Arbery was not only casing the crib, but actually ran out with a Toto toilet in his waistband. Maybe some tasteful wainscot tile on his pockets for good measure. You still couldn't pull a gun on him for that, much less ventilate him.

This is the important point. One that has been stated by several different posters in many different ways. It doesn't matter if he broke in to your house, seduced your mother, wife, daughter, and the family dog, stole the good silver and then left pictures of himself driving off in your car. The next time you see him you can't chase him down and threaten him with weapons and then claim its his fault when he resists and you shoot him.

Those aren't capital offenses, you aren't the judge or jury, and you weren't standing your ground in the face of imminent danger. You were a ******* who did an incredibly stupid thing and wound up killing a man. You should have to pay for it.
 
Take some pictures. Call the cops. Don't go all Rambo on us.
No kidding. Don't get guns and do this:

The McMichaels gave chase.

The McMichaels drove past Ahmaud "not-a-jogger" Arbery and stopped to confront him. And then murdered him.

FTFY

Apparently some members in this thread (not you) don’t know that you can’t go around murdering people even if they are a bad person!
 
When that is an argument people are legitimately making, it's probably a good idea to make it clear that you're not agreeing with it when you support one of the components of it.

Not that I think it matters once you have clarified, but it isn't unreasonable to make that association before you have. Probably should be just a simple question rather than a more strident engagement. Dealing with so many bad faith arguments has eroded many otherwise good practices there.

An excellent example of a bad faith argument, in fact, is assuming that one endorses racist murdering because of a mild sidebar question about how other posters treat trespassing.
 
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