[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[d4m10n]

Is Biden saying transwomen are women? Or is he saying they have the same human rights as everyone else, regardless of whether they're women or not?

Speaking as a shameless Biden fan, I think he's saying whichever one you find more politically palatable.

 

[Meadmaker]

If that's your assumption... where do detranstioners fit into it?

There's this (valid) thing called gender fluidity

Certainly, but applying it to detransitioners is a bit tricky.

Most detransitioners would say that they never should have transitioned, and that they were never really transgender at all. They might use different words, what with the inconsistent vocabularies in use and all that. To make it easier, let's take the case of a female who surgically transitions to appear male, but later detransitions, to the extent possible, to female.

In order to ascribe those decisions, that is the decisions to transition and detransition, to gender fluidity, which is perfectly valid, we would have to say that the female at some point began to feel that he had a masculine gender identity, and wanted to bring his body into line with that gender identity, and so chose to transition to male-ish. (I don't know the exact term for a surgically altered body. It doesn't become a male body, but it does resemble one.) At a later point she realizes that her gender has changed to feminine, and she wants a body that matches her feminine gender, so she transitions to femaie. (In this case her body really is female, but I don't know the full extent that transition reversion is possible, so she is female, but perhaps not with functioning female organs.)

(Note that in the above, gendered pronouns were used based on the gender at the time the decisions were made. So, "he" transitioned from female to male-ish, but "she" transitioned from male-ish to female.)


Having performed the detransition, though, I don't think the detransitioners say that's what happened. An FtM then MtF transition-detransitioner generally says that she was born a woman (i.e. feminine gender) and remained a woman, but had some sort of psycho-sexual issues, and was persuaded that she would be better off with a male-ish body. The transition didn't make her happy and she (remember, her gender was actually always feminine, but she was persuaded to transition) wanted to detransition. So she did.

That's not gender fluidity. If you want to say that this case was a valid gender fluidity you would have to assert that she at one point really had a masculine gender, and is mistaken in her claim that her gender was never masculine.

 

[d4m10n]

There's this (valid) thing called gender fluidity

I feel like we really need a working definition of "valid" here. Obviously we cannot lean on psychiatric assessment, since fluidity isn't in the DSM-5.

 

[Matthew Best]

I assumed they meant adolescents having sex with other adolescents. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

The only evidence is the words they use: they want to "eliminate laws limiting legal capacity of adolescents to provide consent to sex".

An adolescent is generally considered to be someone between the ages of 10 and 19.

That seems on its face to be saying they want 10 year olds to be able to consent to sex.

 

[Elaedith]

I feel like we really need a working definition of "valid" here. Obviously we cannot lean on psychiatric assessment, since fluidity isn't in the DSM-5.

I think unfalsifiability is rather central to the appeal.

 

[LondonJohn]

So... Keira Bell is wrong when she says that she is a woman, and that she was inn appropriately diagnosed and should never have been transitioned? She's actually gender fluid?

Are you quite sure you know what gender fluid means?

Ah good. Using one of a handful of outlier examples to try to prove a principle. That's the kind of subjective logic I can buy into!

"Next up, Tom has a fascinating story about how men should be as worried as women about developing breast cancer, when he interviews two men who have recently received that diagnosis. Back after these words from your local station."

 

[Matthew Best]

Ah good. Using one of a handful of outlier examples to try to prove a principle.

For "prove" you mean "disprove".

 

[Aber]

Ah good. Using one of a handful of outlier examples to try to prove a principle. That's the kind of subjective logic I can buy into!

As you should as a lawyer; look up the court case.

 

[Earthborn]

No, watchful waiting explicitly delays affirmation (of cross-sex identification), traditionally until puberty. Once affirmation or social transition occur, the 'waiting' is finished.

This does not at all describe the "watchful waiting" method pioneered by Prof. Cohen-Kettenis in the Netherlands.

Children under watchful waiting were denied affirmation before puberty.

No, they were not.

In the logistic regression analyses reported on p586 where persistence/desistance was the binary outcome.

I don't care what is on page five hunderd and something in an article behind a steep paywall.

Not blocking gender-variant behaviours is not transitioning.

Allowing a child to express their gender in their own way, including taking on another gender role, is exactly what transitioning is.

The fact that virtually all children put on puberty blockers go on to transition (meaning it is not actually 'buying time' but is actually the first stage of medical transition) is not shown in these articles, no.

Of course it is the first stage of medical transition. The whole point is that children who seem very likely to want to medically transition are treated in a way that does not involve irreversible changes too early.

That has been shown elsewhere, including in the data from the Tavistock that mysteriously went missing for years then coincidentally resurfaced days after the recent court case was over.

It would be suspect if the Tavistock data shows that not virtually all children put on puberty blockers go on to transition. It would mean that Tavistock was doing a bad job at identifying those who are likely to transition.

 

[Belz...]

I have read many accounts of transgender people and their transgender identities. And I can't remember any account which differs much from the following type of narrative (represented here as a transwoman for simplicity):

"When I reached X years of age, I began to realise that I didn't see myself as a boy/man, but that I was actually a girl/woman. Everybody saw me as a boy/man and treated me as such, but I knew that I was different...."

And so on. These people didn't choose to be transgender. It was something deep in their psyche which (somehow) did the choosing for them. It was, in a real sense, forced upon them. Many of them struggled to come to terms with it (= gender dysphoria). To consider it to be a matter of discretionary choice - which also implies that they could equally have chosen not to be transgender - is (IMO) incorrect,

Your conclusion does not follow from the quote you presented. It's a reasonable inference but it's not the only one available.

We all have feelings of all sorts all the time. We interpret them, ignore them or change them, sometimes at will. I think it's unwarranted to assume that someone's feelings in one particular category are innate and in no way related to choice.

But that's how the activists frame it. I have no issue with it being not a matter of choice, like homosexuality or eye colour, but then I'm not the one contradicting myself here.

 

[Belz...]

But there are other rights, such as the right to a sex-segregated space or community, that are very much restricted to certain demographics. Men do not have the right to join a women's basketball league, for example.

I think those, however, are not properly called 'rights'. No one has a right to join a basketball league.

 

[theprestige]

I think those, however, are not properly called 'rights'. No one has a right to join a basketball league.

Which is why I keep asking LJ et al what rights are currently being denied.

 

[Belz...]

Summary from Feminist Legal (read or not at your choice)

The "declaration" persistently includes gender non-conforming in with women and girls throughout. It also wedges in a lot of anti-capitalist and economic stuff, in a bit of a gish-gallop approach.

Of particular note are the passages under Item 14:

Oomph. And they were doing so well before the highlighted part...

 

[Belz...]

There's this (valid) thing called gender fluidity

Sorry, but I won't take you at your word. What's the current scientific consensus on this? I'm not even sure we have an agreed-upon definition for this condition.

And I think that the global community of relevant experts - psychiatrists, psychologists, sociologists and clinicians - have actually now answered to their satisfaction those questions which you've posed here.

Same as above.

I'm not altogether minded to play the dupe in a JAQ game, thanks

First of all, "Just asking questions" is a process whereby you make a veiled accusation framed as a question. It has nothing to do with actually asking questions and expecting an answer.

Second, since your response is indistinguishable from saying "I actually have nothing to support my claim'", you'll forgive the rest of us for interpreting it as what you're actually saying.

 

[theprestige]

"Shut up," he explained.

 

[Belz...]

I think unfalsifiability is rather central to the appeal.

Do you think that the appeal is somewhat based on the desire to not conform to gender expectations and roles of society?

 

[Belz...]

Ah good. Using one of a handful of outlier examples to try to prove a principle. That's the kind of subjective logic I can buy into!

You're in no position to talk, considering you've used personal anecdotes and feelings as arguments.

 

[theprestige]

Is that supposed to be sarcastic? He said nothing of the sort. Scroll through and see for yourself.

I have scrolled through. Of course he said nothing of the sort. It's empty platitudes. Not relevant to this thread.

Speaking as a shameless Biden fan, I think he's saying whichever one you find more politically palatable.

Exactly.

 

[theprestige]

Do you think that the appeal is somewhat based on the desire to not conform to gender expectations and roles of society?

In his novel Pattern Recognition, William Gibson introduces a character who is allergic to corporate logos. Exposure to them triggers something like PTSD for her. I sometimes wonder if gender dysphoria isn't a similar kind of allergic reaction to social norms.

 

[Earthborn]

Yes, it's possible that the selection process is really good, and that skews the numbers.

The selection process does not even need to be really good, just err on the side of waiting over intervention. It is very rare that children's gender identity is clear enough at a young age that they are put on puberty blockers before puberty even starts.

This is an off-label use.

No, it isn't. Not in the Netherlands.

Obviously it's not killing patients quickly, but who the hell knows if it's going to cause serious complications in 30 or 40 years.

If it is going to cause serious complications in 30 years, we would have been seeing those complications right about now.

We're screwing around with deep biological processes which we only have a very rudimentary understanding of.

That kind of describes all of medicine.