[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[LondonJohn]

Yeah, I agree there are bunch of seemingly contradictory things said by activists. They claim to be against sex-associated stereotypes, but at the same time double down on them - indeed that seems to be at the core of the "gender" definition.

I don't know what you mean here. In the first clause of your "They claim to be..." sentence, I take you to mean that they are against the fixed tying of the gender "man" to all males (and the gender "woman" to all females). Is my assessment correct?

But then I have trouble understanding what you mean in the second clause of the sentence (doubling down). Would you be able to expand further?

Incidentally, there's plenty of very good academic and scientific material readily available online which explains what transgender identity is, the principles (medical and sociological) upon which it is based, and the evidence for its validity.

Also - it's not a medical condition, but at the same time requires medical care that's being denied

???? Who's saying it's not a medical condition?

It absolutely IS a medical condition. What it is not is a medical disorder.

 

[Aber]

I have, many times, entirely accepted the validity of females' concerns. Which...... is one of the reasons why I am suggesting possible ways in which females might be protected.

While completely ignoring female responses as to why your suggestions are unacceptable.

 

[LondonJohn]

To try to summarise the discussions and positions both here and in the nonbinary thread:

Sex = biology; binary
Gender = something else

1 - Gender and sex are binary and the same, and there should be segregation in certain areas based on sex - Traditionalists

2 - Gender and sex are binary, but not always the same, and there should be segregation based on gender - Transrights activists

3 - Gender is a spectrum and not linked to sex, and there should not be segregation - Radicals

4 - Gender is a spectrum and not linked to sex, and there should be segregation based on sex - ?

Have I missed anything?

Yes you have. Very obviously.

5 - Gender and sex are binary, but not always the same, and there should be segregation based on sex - quite a lot of people within this thread, seemingly.

 

[LondonJohn]

While completely ignoring female responses as to why your suggestions are unacceptable.

Completely ignoring? I see.

(By the way, it would have been interesting perhaps if at least one of the females within this thread had even dipped their toe into thinking about whether there might be any way in which transgender people would be able to use the changing rooms correlating to their gender, while addressing potential safety or privacy issues related to this. But.... not one peep. Instead: nothing but total obstructionism. That's certainly food for thought.)


ETA: It would also be more..... *helpful* if you were not to snip out contextually- and argumentatively-relevant parts of my posts when you reply to them. It somewhat puts me in mind of more extreme examples, such as a theatre critic writing "You'll have a great night out, if you're a fan of dreadful scrips and wooden acting", and the theatre snipping out the first clause for its billboards....

 

[Matthew Best]

Identifying as black is a valid human condition, yes. For black people.

Identifying as HM The Queen is a valid human condition, for HM The Queen.

OK, but why is race different?

Identifying as a man is a valid human condition, for a woman.
So why is identifying as black not a valid human condition for a white person?

 

[Earthborn]

No to mention - gender is socially constructed and fluid (hence completely unlike sexual orientation), yet children know their gender from an early age, their 'trans' identity must be unconditionally affirmed, and they can begin social transition before puberty. Biological sex is irrelevant to gender; a male who identifies as a woman has a female penis, yet medical transition is 'gender affirming'.

You are confusing "gender" with "gender identity". Two very different things. "Gender" is socially constructed and fluid. It consists of social attitudes and stereotypes.

"Gender identity" is a deeply personal sense of self that is not socially constructed, but in some cases fluid. Children develop their "gender identity" at an early age as they develop a sense of self, sometimes clearly in one direction or another, sometimes it can shift during childhood. Their 'trans' identity must be conditionally affirmed. In some cases, their "gender identity" is so stable that they can begin social transitioning before puberty.

 

[LondonJohn]

OK, but why is race different?

Identifying as a man is a valid human condition, for a woman.
So why is identifying as black not a valid human condition for a white person?

Because race is, first and foremost, a physical construct (yes, clearly there is a big intangible "lived" construct layered on top of that, but it ultimately all leads back to physical presentation).

On the other hand, gender is in no way a physical construct. It's entirely a psychiatric lived condition.


To take another example: someone who is leg-disabled faces challenges in life which are not faced by people whose legs function fully. And leg disability is a physical condition.

Now suppose I - who has two functional legs - decided to identify as someone who was leg-disabled. I'd confine myself to a wheelchair and ask to be considered/treated as someone who was leg-disabled.

Clearly (I'd hope), in this instance my identification as a leg-disabled person would be considered a) invalid, and b) the product of a mental disorder.


Now, to go back to race.....

If a white person were to define something along the lines of "the lived experience of black people within my environment", and chose to identify with that lived experience, that would be the closest thing to, say, a female choosing to identify as the "man" gender. But a white person identifying as a black person would be very different.


ETA: I just noticed, you appear to have got yourself mixed up between 1) biological sex and 2) gender.

You wrote: "Identifying as a man is a valid human condition, for a woman." But that's inaccurate.

Instead, it should have been: "Identifying as a man is a valid human condition, for a female".

On paper it looks like a small - and to many, I'm sure, inconsequential - difference. But it makes a very big difference.

 

[LondonJohn]

You are confusing "gender" with "gender identity". Two very different things. "Gender" is socially constructed and fluid. It consists of social attitudes and stereotypes.

"Gender identity" is a deeply personal sense of self that is not socially constructed, but in some cases fluid. Children develop their "gender identity" at an early age as they develop a sense of self, sometimes clearly in one direction or another, sometimes it can shift during childhood. Their 'trans' identity must be conditionally affirmed. In some cases, their "gender identity" is so stable that they can begin social transitioning before puberty.

Yes. This.

(Though I sound a note of caution wrt pre-puberty transmission)

 

[Matthew Best]

On the other hand, gender is in no way a physical construct. It's entirely a psychiatric lived condition.

Really?

 

[d4m10n]

A non-black person identifying as black is not a valid human condition.

Why not? DSM-5 has nothing to say on this topic, AFAIK.

 

[Earthborn]

2 - Gender and sex are binary, but not always the same, and there should be segregation based on gender - Transrights activists

Trans-rights activists do not claim that gender or sex is binary, and do not argue that there should be segregation based on either; but that if there is to be segregation, it should be based on gender presentation. As D4m10n succinctly put it: "Use the room where you'll raise the fewest eyebrows."

3 - Gender is a spectrum and not linked to sex, and there should not be segregation - Radicals

Gender is a spectrum, and it is only linked to sex in so far as societal attitudes associate it to sex. Sex is biological, and nothing in biology is a perfect binary; though mammalian sex differentiation is certainly as close to a perfect binary as any biological system can possibly be. There should not be segregation; I thought the issue of segregation was settled in the early 1960s. If thinking that makes me a radical, I'm proud to be a radical.

 

[theprestige]

Yes. This.

(Though I sound a note of caution wrt pre-puberty transmission)

What note of caution would that be? Can you cite any medical professionals who advise this caution? On what grounds?

 

[LondonJohn]

Really?

Yes, really.

It often manifests itself through physical presentation. But that's in no way whatsoever a required component.

For example, let's go back to Sam Smith. They identify as non-binary. Yet they to all intents present as a "man" gender. And there are plenty of other binary and non-binary transgender people who choose not to present visually/physically in a way which might be deemed to be linked to their transgender identity.

 

[LondonJohn]

Why not? DSM-5 has nothing to say on this topic, AFAIK.

It has nothing to say on people identifying as Attila the Hun either, I suspect.

 

[theprestige]

Yes, really.

It often manifests itself through physical presentation. But that's in no way whatsoever a required component.

For example, let's go back to Sam Smith. They identify as non-binary. Yet they to all intents present as a "man" gender. And there are plenty of other binary and non-binary transgender people who choose not to present visually/physically in a way which might be deemed to be linked to their transgender identity.

What rights is Sam Smith entitled to, that he does not already enjoy?

 

[LondonJohn]

What note of caution would that be? Can you cite any medical professionals who advise this caution? On what grounds?

Hmmm.

My note of caution would primarily be around a pre-pubescent person's ability to make properly-informed decisions. After all, in the jurisdictions of pretty much every liberal democracy, people of that age are not able to vote, nor to consent to most significant medical interventions, nor to be involved in sexual relationships... and so on.

I'd be wanting safeguards to be in place to try to ensure that a) a person of this age was not putting themselves on a road map which they might subsequently find it difficult - whether emotionally or physically - to arrest or reverse, and b) a person of this age was not undergoing extreme medical or surgical procedures which might become effectively irreversible.

Note that I'm not saying I'm automatically against it in principle. I'm saying that I believe there should be caution and safeguards.

 

[LondonJohn]

What rights is Sam Smith entitled to, that he does not already enjoy?

I give up. And how is this in any way relevant to the point I was addressing? You can look up the answer to your question pretty easily if you like.

 

[Myriad]

Completely ignoring? I see.

(By the way, it would have been interesting perhaps if at least one of the females within this thread had even dipped their toe into thinking about whether there might be any way in which transgender people would be able to use the changing rooms correlating to their gender, while addressing potential safety or privacy issues related to this. But.... not one peep. Instead: nothing but total obstructionism. That's certainly food for thought.)

I have one idea, but it depends on some answers that must come from women. Rather than make assumptions, I'll address those questions to all women here.

Consider a women's changing room situation and setup that you regard as typical within a privately owned (non government) facility. Suppose it's not the present day but about ten years ago. Now suppose a woman who used that changing room decided to wear, and to frequently leave visible, a strap-on sex toy designed to be penetrative.

If asked why, the woman gave some reason other than a gender identity issue. (Perhaps she claimed it was a joke, or it was a forfeit for having lost a bet, or it was performance art, or that she just enjoyed trying to be outrageous.)

- Would women using the changing room likely have asked her to desist, by either removing the appliance or keeping it covered up?

- If she had refused to desist, would women likely have complained to the facility's management?

- If multiple such complaints were made would the management likely have intervened in any way?

- Would it make any difference if there had been teenage girls using the changing room at such times?

- Would it make any difference if pre-teen girls had been using the changing room at such times?

- Would it make any difference if the appliance were a realistic prosthetic penis instead of a strap-on?

 

[Earthborn]

Because race is, first and foremost, a physical construct

No, race is not a physical construct. It is a social construct; a way society classifies people based on irrelevant physical characteristics.

On the other hand, gender is in no way a physical construct. It's entirely a psychiatric lived condition.

I think you mean to say "gender identity" instead of "gender", but you are wrong either way. "Gender identity" is not a psychiatric condition. It is just an identity.

 

[LondonJohn]

I have one idea, but it depends on some answers that must come from women. Rather than make assumptions, I'll address those questions to all women here.

Consider a women's changing room situation and setup that you regard as typical within a privately owned (non government) facility. Suppose it's not the present day but about ten years ago. Now suppose a woman who used that changing room decided to wear, and to frequently leave visible, a strap-on sex toy designed to be penetrative.

If asked why, the woman gave some reason other than a gender identity issue. (Perhaps she claimed it was a joke, or it was a forfeit for having lost a bet, or it was performance art, or that she just enjoyed trying to be outrageous.)

- Would women using the changing room likely have asked her to desist, by either removing the appliance or keeping it covered up?

- If she had refused to desist, would women likely have complained to the facility's management?

- If multiple such complaints were made would the management likely have intervened in any way?

- Would it make any difference if there had been teenage girls using the changing room at such times?

- Would it make any difference if pre-teen girls had been using the changing room at such times?

- Would it make any difference if the appliance were a realistic prosthetic penis instead of a strap-on?

Are you a female*? (I genuinely don't know).

And unless your follow-on suggestion bears no relation to this preliminary question you're asking here, none of this has nothing to do with gender identity.

It has to do with general public decency.

If a male (of whatever gender identity, of whatever sexuality) were to leave a strap-on around the place of the men's changing rooms, exactly the same issues would arise.

But as I said, ignore all of this if your consequent question will concern transgender identity and the thorny "communal changing rooms" issue.


* If you are, then IMO it's good to see something constructive on this issue coming from a female PoV.

* And from the context of your post, I am assuming you meant to write "females" rather than "women" throughout. But I'd better ask you what you meant, just to be on the safe side :