Doing the least to save your life...

[Dogdoctor]

I can. They can become an obsession, and if the patient buys into the creed that the only reason this might not work is that you didn't try hard enough, a very destructive obsession.

Homoeopathic remedies are harmless too. Would you suggest he take these, for that reason?

Rolfe.

Homeopathic remedies are supposed to be harmless and should be if they are prepared properly however people have died for taking homeopathic preparations due to bacterial contamination contamination with powerful drugs. The point I would say is that if a product is entirely useless than any risk from it is too much. There are risks to all these natural things you might think are safe. More and more risks are discovered all the time as they get used more and more. On top of that there is a plethora of imaginary treatments to use. How would one go about logically choosing those which might help?

 

[Ducky]

Admirable restraint! I almost started a post chewing him out, then thought, leave that to fowlsound. I'm very impressed at your calm reaction.

...I guess it's a good think you two are not in the same room, tho'.

Hans

Well, it started out that way. If you look at the split I was less than charitable later on in the thread.

It baffles me how someone can read a paper explicitly explaining how offensive something is to someone then go do just that to that person.

Also, I would point out that love had said I was using my cancer and subconsciously wanted to have cancer. This is ridiculous. love obviously has never seen firsthand anyone recovering from spinal surgeries, or cancer. Why anyone would presume someone would "want" that much pain and suffering is beyond me, and quite offensive.

 

[BillHoyt]

Also, I would point out that love had said I was using my cancer and subconsciously wanted to have cancer. This is ridiculous. love obviously has never seen firsthand anyone recovering from spinal surgeries, or cancer. Why anyone would presume someone would "want" that much pain and suffering is beyond me, and quite offensive.

Unfortunately, fowlsound, this is the zeitgeist of the woo. Blame the victim. A friend of mine, whose husband had cheated on her throughout their marriage was told by a woo friend of hers that she needed to examine the reasons she needed to attract such a husband to her. Whoa.

How very caring and wholesome a movement, eh? A clear improvement over the cold, heartless scientific and medical community, eh? They always say it sincerely and with smiles on their faces, "well, if only you didn't need to have cancer, you wouldn't have it." It is so easy, and you are so stupid to be having this horrid disease. Snap out of it! Pay the receptionist $350 on your way out, please. Next?

If this crap keeps up we'll be back to Monty Python, "bring out yer dead" scenes and all the other trappings of the dark ages we thought were long past. Ah, yes, those were the days of the nights. Last one out of the enlightenment, please remember to turn off the lights.

 

[Rockstar]

I am not sure that using alternative medicine is the same as not using doctors. Which of magic water, changing your diet or Vitamin C kills you?

Q: What do you call alternative medicine that works?

A: Medicine

 

[Ducky]

Unfortunately, fowlsound, this is the zeitgeist of the woo. Blame the victim. A friend of mine, whose husband had cheated on her throughout their marriage was told by a woo friend of hers that she needed to examine the reasons she needed to attract such a husband to her. Whoa.

How very caring and wholesome a movement, eh? A clear improvement over the cold, heartless scientific and medical community, eh? They always say it sincerely and with smiles on their faces, "well, if only you didn't need to have cancer, you wouldn't have it." It is so easy, and you are so stupid to be having this horrid disease. Snap out of it! Pay the receptionist $350 on your way out, please. Next?

If this crap keeps up we'll be back to Monty Python, "bring out yer dead" scenes and all the other trappings of the dark ages we thought were long past. Ah, yes, those were the days of the nights. Last one out of the enlightenment, please remember to turn off the lights.

Apparently making broad assumtions that are untrue about people and passing them off as fact is par for the course also. love cited that I was using abusive tactics to control their argument, and that my father probably did the same. My father was rather quiet and softspoken, and hardly abusinve in any stretch of the term. (granted, he was an attorney...)

love reminded me of a bad psychic reading. throw enough out there and expect the other person to fill in the blanks, then reccommend som crap treatment afterward.

Thing is, nothing they said was true about me, and honestly I do not see how they couldn't understand they were offensive.

If you offend someone, the reason they are abusive back is merely because you offended them to that point. End of story.

 

[Roadtoad]

Splossy, love, let me point something out.

If I had cancer, the first thing I'd tell any doctor is use whatever means possible to kill the disease, as long as it had been proven effective. Considering the amount of money and time required with proven treatments, why would I waste time on ANYTHING other than that which is effective?

If you don't get the Cancer, the Cancer gets you.

 

[Ducky]

If you don't get the Cancer, the Cancer gets you.

Damn skippy.

Cheers mate.

 

[Diamond]

The rate for spontaneous remission from cancer is about 4%

Those are really poor odds. I think FS has every right to go for the treatment with the best percentages without his belief system having anything to do with it.

The difference between 85% and 4% is rather large. FS is choosing life and not a sugar pill.

 

[Dogdoctor]

You don't actually know that to be the case.

This from Skepdic:

"There are too many studies which have found objective improvements in health from placebos to support the notion that the placebo effect is entirely psychological.

Doctors in one study successfully eliminated warts by painting them with a brightly colored, inert dye and promising patients the warts would be gone when the color wore off. In a study of asthmatics, researchers found that they could produce dilation of the airways by simply telling people they were inhaling a bronchiodilator, even when they weren't. Patients suffering pain after wisdom-tooth extraction got just as much relief from a fake application of ultrasound as from a real one, so long as both patient and therapist thought the machine was on. Fifty-two percent of the colitis patients treated with placebo in 11 different trials reported feeling better -- and 50 percent of the inflamed intestines actually looked better when assessed with a sigmoidoscope"

There are other parts of the article that probably contradict it. But it's clear there might well be a physical side to it.

I would be interested in seeing the study on the warts and what the inert substance was and what controls were used. However warts often spontaneously resolve so it is difficult to evaluate treatments. Asthma is in my opinion partially a psychological disease so would respond to psychological manipulation. The perception of pain can be altered by your mind no big news there. Perhaps there is a psychological factor in colitis so that would explain why it seems to respond to placebo. Symptoms can respond to placebo (the disease usually doesn't unless it is of a psychological nature to start with) Notice there were no malignant tumors mentioned in the placebo descriptions.

 

[Chris Haynes]

If it were me, I'd be trying some of the more harmless alternative methods as well. Just in case. I can't see the harm in the imagination exercises.

What is important in this case is that you probably would not delay the conventional treatment. There is no harm in the imagination exercises... what does cause harm is trying NOTHING but "alternatives" and allowing the cancer to grow to a more unmanagiable state. Just like was illustrated by the case of prostrate cancer posted by Ripley Twenty-Nine in post http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1341538&postcount=74

 

[AnotherSillyAlias]

I know some people are going to tell me I'm wading around in woo for this but, I think there is good evidence that a person's psychological state can have definite effects on bodily illnesses. No, there are no mysterious powers or strange auras or supernatural entities involved, just the brains ability to do some amazing things. In this regard I tend to believe in the "holistic" approach to medicine. Having said all that a person would be a fool not to avail himself of every conventional medical remedy available. If I get sick I get myself to my local GP, but I do think my state of mind can help any recovery.

 

[Ducky]

I know some people are going to tell me I'm wading around in woo for this but, I think there is good evidence that a person's psychological state can have definite effects on bodily illnesses. No, there are no mysterious powers or strange auras or supernatural entities involved, just the brains ability to do some amazing things. In this regard I tend to believe in the "holistic" approach to medicine. Having said all that a person would be a fool not to avail himself of every conventional medical remedy available. If I get sick I get myself to my local GP, but I do think my state of mind can help any recovery.

State of mind is very important. I agree with you. It's when you take the sCAM instead of traditional medicine that is offensive.

Of course I take it further and say it's offensive to offer me soemthing that doesn't work, but it is not offensive to me for people to tell me to keep a positive attitude and cheer me up.

There's a distinct line there.

 

[Perpetual Notion]

D*mmit fowlsound, I go away for a few weeks and this is what I come back to? I'm sorry you are dealing with this again but you are on the right path and you have fought this before and come out ok. I hope it is not as rough this time around. I will be thinking of you and will want to know how you're doing. If anyone has the ability to kick this things a**, it's you. Sometimes it's a good, good thing to be angry.

 

[Dogdoctor]

If I get sick I get myself to my local GP, but I do think my state of mind can help any recovery.

State of mind helps but not in direct ways. It helps you to endure the illness, it helps you to keep taking your prescribed therapy, it keeps you in the proper frame of mind to communicate accurately with the doctor, it keeps you from feeling sorry for yourself and becoming self destructive

 

[Ducky]

State of mind helps but not in direct ways. It helps you to endure the illness, it helps you to keep taking your prescribed therapy, it keeps you in the proper frame of mind to communicate accurately with the doctor, it keeps you from feeling sorry for yourself and becoming self destructive

Agreed.

 

[Rockin' Rick]

Q: What do you call alternative medicine that works?

A: Medicine

Brilliant.

The thing that bothers me the most about alternative medicine is when it is simply shoved off. Government regulation mainly, and some others like the animal research haters, cause new ideas to not even be tested. If they would just get out of the way and let science do its job...
Much of today's real medicine was "alternative" once upon a time. Let science do what it does best, learn.

Best of luck Fowlsound.

 

[jimlintott]

If placebo is 20% effective that means I only need to take five of them to assure myself of a cure.

Sorry, I was trying to come up with something as stupid as:

Sure, but I wouldn't stop at one, I'd use several.

How did I do?

Actually I think love outdid that one with this gem:

I merely point out it is your attitude that causes you to find it offensive rather than say, naive.

love: I think he finds it offensive because he is not naive.

FS:
I read your paper. It makes a strong point. Hope you get well.

 

[supercorgi]

I know some people are going to tell me I'm wading around in woo for this but, I think there is good evidence that a person's psychological state can have definite effects on bodily illnesses. No, there are no mysterious powers or strange auras or supernatural entities involved, just the brains ability to do some amazing things. In this regard I tend to believe in the "holistic" approach to medicine. Having said all that a person would be a fool not to avail himself of every conventional medical remedy available. If I get sick I get myself to my local GP, but I do think my state of mind can help any recovery.

The brain is poorly understood. My dad was in a nursing home for 6 years after unsuccessful brain surgery to remove a tumor. At first he was like a vegetable -- he couldn't speak, he couldn't feed himself, or move. He had a suizure and after that he could speak, feed himself, and at least move a little bit. At the current time, I believe that brain surgery is partly voodoo science. They know very little -- some but not by any stretch of the imagination everything. They are feeling in the dark yet it is still far ahead of the days when they did trepination to relieve brain swelling. Well enough of my persona experiences.

Fowlsound, I'm sorry that you have to go through this. Knowing you from your postings, I'm sure you'll go through it with aplomb and dignity. I admire you and wish you the best in your treatment and hope you'll be with us for a very, very long time.

 

[clarsct]

Y'know. I'd like to point out that any 'benefits' of a placebo effect would also occur by getting REAL MEDICAL HELP! I would feel better knowing a real doctor, who's studied for a number of years, has taken a look and is doing what he can to help.

If I had cancer, I would be in a hospital so fast, it'd make your damn head spin. I don't care what the cost. I may be paying off hospital bills for the rest of my existence, but I would HAVE the rest of my existence to do so!

 

[brodski]

Brilliant.

The thing that bothers me the most about alternative medicine is when it is simply shoved off. Government regulation mainly, and some others like the animal research haters, cause new ideas to not even be tested. If they would just get out of the way and let science do its job...
Much of today's real medicine was "alternative" once upon a time. Let science do what it does best, learn.

Best of luck Fowlsound.

I'm having this argument over at another forum at the moment.

I'll start by saying, there is no "big pharma"/ government conspiract to prevent research into any aspect of medicine, and many parts of the SCAM industry are big enough to fund proper research into theri methods, they just choose not to. I've yet to hear a good explantion for this which does not show teh SCAMers as living up to theri name.

In my opinion the dividing line between woo and real medicine is not necessarily the evidence base, but the willingness to use proper scientific methods to establish an evidence base.

A fantastic recent example of this was the Nobel prize for research in stomach ulcers, ok so they where going against conventional understanding in suggesting a bacterial cause, but they went away and did good research to prove their point, they didn't just rely on patient testimonials and conspiracy theories.

Of course once the tests have been done, then the dividing line between woo and medicine is the evidence base.

Oh and on the "positive thinking" aspect of symptom control, the best "alternative" remedy my sister ever had was from a programme called "look good, feel better" which was a group of beauticians who offered their services for free for young women going through chemo. Didn't do a darn thing to help her cancer but it sure did help her get through the emotional turmoil of loosing her hair.