alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
Preparation for nuking it? At this point nothing seems off the table. Doesn't matter that it's so close -- "easy target!!!"
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Merged US may close Cuba Embassy over 'health attacks'
- Thread starter dann
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Preparation for nuking it? At this point nothing seems off the table. Doesn't matter that it's so close -- "easy target!!!"
Jack by the hedge
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Cuba sponsors Trump?
Biden doesn't seem to think so:
Biden says he wants to return U.S.-Cuba relations to Obama-era engagement policies (Local21News, Jan. 23, 2021)
It doesn't say anything about the so-called 'Havana Syndrome.'
Biden says he wants to return U.S.-Cuba relations to Obama-era engagement policies (Local21News, Jan. 23, 2021)
It doesn't say anything about the so-called 'Havana Syndrome.'
A smart political move (from his PoV). He will force Biden to actively drop sanctions against Cuba, something that can be pointed at in future elections.
Isn't it time to recall the pseudo-scientific reports about 'attacks' on American agents and diplomats at the U.S. embassy in Havana?
The 1776 Commission Report has already been ditched.
The 1776 Commission Report has already been ditched.
Good grief....Why would the Marxist–Leninist paradise of Cuba be even remotely interested in the spoils of bourgeois capitalism like cash transfers, U.S.-origin flights, and cruise ships ?
Trump actually did them a huge favour by insulating them from American influence and this new guy's intended policies smack of good ole American imperialism.
Trump actually did them a huge favour by insulating them from American influence and this new guy's intended policies smack of good ole American imperialism.
I assume Cuba is interested in U.S. American tourism for much the same reason that Latin American capitalist paradises are. Tourism plays an important role in the economy of many Latin American and Caribbean countries, and the pandemic ruined the tourism industry all over the world: The Coronavirus in Latin America (Council of the Americas, Feb. 12, 2021)
However, for Cuba it is one of the ways that the country pays for its schools and health-care system.
In April, Cuba had already sent medical teams to several countries all over the world, but in particular the Caribbean:
It is the reason why the Council of Canadians nominated Cuba's Henry Reeve medical teams for the Nobel Peace Prize: Cuban Medical Teams for 2021 Nobel Peace Prize (Canadians.org, Nov. 16, 2020)
I don't think it all comes down to the Henry Reeve medical teams, but I get the impression that they must have done something right:
Deaths per million
Cuba: 24
Haiti: 21
Jamaica: 127
Dominican Republic: 271
Bahamas: 450
Barbados: 83
Montserrat: 200
Belize: 778
Guatemala: 339
Honduras: 387
El Salvador: 268
Nicaragua: 26
Costa Rica: 530
Panama: 1,294
Mexico: 1,342
USA: 1,498
Canada: 562
However, for Cuba it is one of the ways that the country pays for its schools and health-care system.
In April, Cuba had already sent medical teams to several countries all over the world, but in particular the Caribbean:
It is the reason why the Council of Canadians nominated Cuba's Henry Reeve medical teams for the Nobel Peace Prize: Cuban Medical Teams for 2021 Nobel Peace Prize (Canadians.org, Nov. 16, 2020)
I don't think it all comes down to the Henry Reeve medical teams, but I get the impression that they must have done something right:
Deaths per million
Cuba: 24
Haiti: 21
Jamaica: 127
Dominican Republic: 271
Bahamas: 450
Barbados: 83
Montserrat: 200
Belize: 778
Guatemala: 339
Honduras: 387
El Salvador: 268
Nicaragua: 26
Costa Rica: 530
Panama: 1,294
Mexico: 1,342
USA: 1,498
Canada: 562
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Somebody should tell the CNN that claims of invisible attacks require just as much evidence as claims of invisible dragons.
Other Cuba-US news:
Cuba pays tribute to victims of coronavirus in the United States (OnCubaNews, Feb. 24, 2021)
Biden extends emergency situation with respect to Cuba (OnCubaNews, Feb. 25, 2021)
And Cuba medical news:
Clinical trials and production of Cuban COVID vaccines advance simultaneously (Granma.cu, Feb. 26, 2021)
xjx388
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Man, they sure are good at medicine! Feeding their people, giving them access to basic household necessities, letting them have access to free information, giving them fair and free elections, allowing them to voice dissent, etc etc? Not so much.
Yes, they are damn good at medicine. Too bad that the State Department never cooperated with Cuban doctors to attempt to find out what happened to the U.S. diplomats and agents in Havana. I am sure that they would also help the USA fight the pandemic if you asked them.
Cubans don't starve, so no need not worry. Hunger in the USA (Wikipedia)
But it would probably help make it easier for them to feed their people and make their diet more diverse if the U.S. embargo against the country was ended:
They don't need any help with fair and free elections. Cuba's elections are freer and fairer than the electoral system of the USA. Their information tends to be more accurate than what the U.S. media delivers, and they are good at voicing dissent, too.
I doubt that Cubans are impressed by your Stop the Steal campaigns or similar QAnonsense. Cubans are well informed about those, too.
Cubans don't starve, so no need not worry. Hunger in the USA (Wikipedia)
But it would probably help make it easier for them to feed their people and make their diet more diverse if the U.S. embargo against the country was ended:
They don't need any help with fair and free elections. Cuba's elections are freer and fairer than the electoral system of the USA. Their information tends to be more accurate than what the U.S. media delivers, and they are good at voicing dissent, too.
I doubt that Cubans are impressed by your Stop the Steal campaigns or similar QAnonsense. Cubans are well informed about those, too.
xjx388
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Lol. Cubans don’t starve and Cuba has eradicated poverty. Their elections are freer and fairer than the US. Let me know when you wake up.
Maybe in your dreams, you can come up with a good theory as to why a self-sufficient and utopian country like Cuba would care so much about the US embargoes and such, to the extent that they might be willing to launch “health attacks” on the US Embassy. And detains dissidents. And refuses to allow their people access to information.
That is som assertion! Without freedom, their elections can hardly be called elections. They may seem fair in theory, but when all alternatives are the same, fairness does not matter.
I might remind you that the election system in the old East Germany also was very fair, and showed support for the Communist Party of more than 90%.
The dissent is within limits, as befits a dictatorship. I am sure that Cubans are very well informed about issues that suits the government.
The Chinese also are well informed about the worst aspects of America, and they also have elections that presumably are fair, but completely irrelevant.
But all of that does not change the fact that Cuba has a welfare system among the best in the world, considering it is is an extremely poor country, mainly because of the embargo.
And it also does not change the fact that the embassy “attacks” are a result of the fevered imagination of embassy staff and a U.S. government that gratefully accepts anything that can be used to justify maintaining the embargo.
That is some assertion. What exactly is the freedom they lack? Everybody can run in Cuban elections. I know too little about the electoral system in the GDR, but I don't see the relevance. Is your claim that the two things are one and the same? How so?
I am not sure what you think befits dictatorships. Dissent seems to be wide-spread in many of them, currently in Belarus, for example. I have been to Cuba several times, talked to Cubans from all walks of life, and it surprised me how much they knew about conditions in the rest of the world, in the EU, for instance, and sometimes even in Denmark. I don't think you have actual knowledge of the level of information in the Cuban population. Your ideas seem to be based exclusively on what you have heard Danish media say about Cuba.
I can imagine, but I have no real knowledge of how the electoral system in China works. China is relevant in the context of Cuba because ....?
Cuba is a poor country, but not extremely poor. I wouldn't describe Cuba's welfare system as being among the best in the world, but relatively speaking, i.e. for a poor country, it may be the best.
We agree on that one.
What is the basis for your claim that Cuba has eradicated poverty? And why do you call Cuba a "utopian country"?
You manage to save the idea of "health attacks" by writing that Cuba "might (!) be willing" to launch them, i.e. by reducing them to a mere hypothesis. I guess that's a kind of progress: You won't outright claim that Cuba launched health attacks on U.S. embassy staff, but you are loath to give up on the idea that they might want to. Pathetic!
If this weren't the thread about the alleged "health attacks" on U.S. diplomats and agents, I would ask you to elaborate on the idea that it is possible to prevent people "access to information" in this day and age.
As for the dissidents being detained ... The USA has detained an awful lot of dissidents lately, but they weren't detained for being dissidents. They were detained for launching an actual attack on the Capitol. Dissidents in Cuba also aren't detained for being dissidents. They are detained if they obstruct Cuban society or when they are paid by the USA to do so. Being a dissident is frowned upon but allowed in Cuba, and you can't be jailed merely for disagreeing with the state.
As an American, you would probably be disappointed by the way that Cuban law enforcement works. There is really no comparison.
Enlighten me: are there different parties in Cuba? How strong is the representation of those that want to open up for more private businesses?
Oh, yes plenty of dissent, but not tolerated dissent.
You are right, I have never been to Cuba. My information is mainly from German and UK media, and from one colleague and one family member who have been there. They have been unanimous that there were certain things that could not be discussed. Tourist guide could be very forthcoming and honest, but clammed shut when asked about political issues, such as whether they were happy about their government. I have experienced the same thing the two dictatorships I have visited when grown up: China and Uzbekistan. In both places people shut up, or even asked me to ask another question. In one German Weltspiegel documentation a happy Cuban suddenly turned away and left when asked about his opinion of the U.S.
You would not see this behaviour in a free society.
Because they are both dictatorships.
xjx388
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I didn't claim they eradicated poverty, you did by linking to your citations. You should maybe read them? My comments were sarcastic. You seem to think Cuba is utopian since you constantly elevate them and use them as an example.
I have never claimed otherwise. I have no idea what's happening with that. However, it's a distinct possibility, especially given the CIA investigations. ETA: Reading a bit more, I see that it's very probable there was an attack targeting personnel. Probably microwave attacks, which are entirely plausible. We have actual injured people. It's clear something happened here. And yes, I think Cuba would be quite willing to attack CIA agents and other US assets on their soil.
Of course not, the good and benevolent dictators of the Utopian Island of Cuba would never do any such thing! (If I were in Cuba, it would be necessary for me to say such a thing in order to avoid being jailed. Here in America, I have the freedom to say whatever I want about them).
If you don't know and realize this for yourself already, I don't know what to tell you.
Laughably naive.
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You have completely left the theme of this thread, so your post as well as my answer to it ought to be moved to a new thread.
1) Yes, but not with the kind of political campaigns that can be bought by billionaires like in Cuba's close neighbor, obviously. 2) Strong enough to open up for some level of private businesses.
The dissent I have seen was obviously tolerated. Cubans like to debate. But they don't like to do so with foreigners they don't trust. More about this below.
I think that you are aware that one colleague and one family member aren't much, so please don't try to pump it up by using a word like unanimous. OK, so all two of them shared an opinion.
Apparently, you think that your "happy Cuban" who turned away from a TV reporter when asked about the U.S. did so because Big Brother was watching him and he was mortally afraid to admit his deep desire to defect to the American paradise. For some reason, it never seems to occur to the foreign press that Cubans are aware of what these questions are meant to convey to viewers of this kind of program. They know about this kind of reporting, they know how Cuba is presented in the western media, and they don't want to contribute to it. (And on the topic of this thread: They know the kind of insane lies that are told about Cuba, in particular in the USA.)
But the interpretation in western media is always the same:
1) A Cuban, say, Yoani Sanchez, for instance, unafraid, describes Cuba as a hellhole.
Western media: 'There you have it: Cuba is a hellhole!'
2) A Cuban describes Cuban life as pleasant, with its ups and downs, and is obviously proud of the country's achievements in medicine and education.
Western media: 'That Cuban must either be brainwashed by the government or afraid to tell the truth.'
3) A Cuban doesn't want to enter into a discussion of political themes, knowing what the reporters are fishing for and not wanting to be a part of it.
Western media: 'That Cuban is a dissident, but afraid to say so.'
As mentioned before, in my experience Cubans tend to be very well informed about conditions in other parts of the world, and they are well aware of the material standards in Europe or North America. For this reason, some of them would like to go there. This is not different from other Latin American countries, but in the minds of many Americans and Europeans, this is turned into the delusion that all Cubans want to escape from oppression to freedom. I have met very few Cubans who actually have this wish. The ones who do want to leave Cuba for another country, usually point to Canada or Europe rather than the USA.
When they complain about conditions in Cuba, it is usually about the wages. However, they are also well aware of conditions in other Latin American countries and consider themselves lucky that they don't live there. It may come as a surprise to many Westerners, but many Cubans know that the alternative to poverty in Cuba isn't the relative affluence of, say, Scandinavia, and they know that U.S. attempts to overthrow the Cuban government doesn't intend to replace it with the Scandinavian welfare system. Like I said, they know about the rest of the world and they have seen what happens to countries that fall prey too U.S. interference. How could they not?!
Of course, you would. Let's say that I was interviewed in the street by foreign media. I wouldn't be inclined to avoid criticizing conditions in Denmark that I don't approve of, but if it became apparent to me that I was being used by, say, Fox News or NTV for a propaganda piece, I wouldn't be as forthcoming.
And I would be pissed off if this was interpreted as an example of a Danish citizen's fear of government repercussions ...
They are not at all alike. Cuban democracy is different from democracy in Denmark, but it is much more participatory than what we have. I have had discussions with Cubans who had delusions about the influence that ordinary people have on government affairs in Denmark, for instance when they asked me why we chose to wage war in Afghanistan and Iraq. They were shocked when I told them that we were never asked - and later, that it wasn't a big question in the elections.
And yes, some Cubans even know about the wars Denmark wages.
1) Yes, but not with the kind of political campaigns that can be bought by billionaires like in Cuba's close neighbor, obviously. 2) Strong enough to open up for some level of private businesses.
The dissent I have seen was obviously tolerated. Cubans like to debate. But they don't like to do so with foreigners they don't trust. More about this below.
I think that you are aware that one colleague and one family member aren't much, so please don't try to pump it up by using a word like unanimous. OK, so all two of them shared an opinion.
Apparently, you think that your "happy Cuban" who turned away from a TV reporter when asked about the U.S. did so because Big Brother was watching him and he was mortally afraid to admit his deep desire to defect to the American paradise. For some reason, it never seems to occur to the foreign press that Cubans are aware of what these questions are meant to convey to viewers of this kind of program. They know about this kind of reporting, they know how Cuba is presented in the western media, and they don't want to contribute to it. (And on the topic of this thread: They know the kind of insane lies that are told about Cuba, in particular in the USA.)
But the interpretation in western media is always the same:
1) A Cuban, say, Yoani Sanchez, for instance, unafraid, describes Cuba as a hellhole.
Western media: 'There you have it: Cuba is a hellhole!'
2) A Cuban describes Cuban life as pleasant, with its ups and downs, and is obviously proud of the country's achievements in medicine and education.
Western media: 'That Cuban must either be brainwashed by the government or afraid to tell the truth.'
3) A Cuban doesn't want to enter into a discussion of political themes, knowing what the reporters are fishing for and not wanting to be a part of it.
Western media: 'That Cuban is a dissident, but afraid to say so.'
As mentioned before, in my experience Cubans tend to be very well informed about conditions in other parts of the world, and they are well aware of the material standards in Europe or North America. For this reason, some of them would like to go there. This is not different from other Latin American countries, but in the minds of many Americans and Europeans, this is turned into the delusion that all Cubans want to escape from oppression to freedom. I have met very few Cubans who actually have this wish. The ones who do want to leave Cuba for another country, usually point to Canada or Europe rather than the USA.
When they complain about conditions in Cuba, it is usually about the wages. However, they are also well aware of conditions in other Latin American countries and consider themselves lucky that they don't live there. It may come as a surprise to many Westerners, but many Cubans know that the alternative to poverty in Cuba isn't the relative affluence of, say, Scandinavia, and they know that U.S. attempts to overthrow the Cuban government doesn't intend to replace it with the Scandinavian welfare system. Like I said, they know about the rest of the world and they have seen what happens to countries that fall prey too U.S. interference. How could they not?!
Of course, you would. Let's say that I was interviewed in the street by foreign media. I wouldn't be inclined to avoid criticizing conditions in Denmark that I don't approve of, but if it became apparent to me that I was being used by, say, Fox News or NTV for a propaganda piece, I wouldn't be as forthcoming.
And I would be pissed off if this was interpreted as an example of a Danish citizen's fear of government repercussions ...
They are not at all alike. Cuban democracy is different from democracy in Denmark, but it is much more participatory than what we have. I have had discussions with Cubans who had delusions about the influence that ordinary people have on government affairs in Denmark, for instance when they asked me why we chose to wage war in Afghanistan and Iraq. They were shocked when I told them that we were never asked - and later, that it wasn't a big question in the elections.
And yes, some Cubans even know about the wars Denmark wages.
OK, we’ll leave it at that.
Yes, of course you were sarcastic. It is one of the ways you try to hide your ignorance of the topic. You were the one who wrote that "Cuba has eradicated poverty." I linked to a website saying that "Over the last 50 years, comprehensive social protection programmes have largely eradicated poverty and hunger." Do I have to explain the difference between eradicating poverty and largely eradicating poverty - in a third-world country?
I don't constantly "elevate them," but Cuba is often a good example to use in comparison with the USA, for instance in discussions about health care in general or the pandemic strategy in particular.
By the way, this thread is about alleged Cuban attacks on the health of U.S. agents and diplomats in Havana, in case you haven't noticed.
So now you have actually bothered to find out what this thread is about! Amazing! But no, it's probably a combination of paranoia and crickets, not microwave attacks. The only other hypothesis with something going for it is the Israeli-Canadian study that suggests insecticide as the culprit. You would have known about this if you had read the thread.
Your fantasies about health attacks on CIA agents in Cuba are totally in line with most of the Trump era's delusions, so there is nothing to worry about. CIA and FBI won't suspect you of being a dissident.
You have no idea what would be necessary for you to do if you were in Cuba. You actually seem to think that Cubans are afraid to come up with alternative ideas about what happened to the U.S. agents. They aren't. And they have the freedom to utter those ideas, too. But you seem to be happy to live in a country where you have the freedom to believe in any lie the government tells you, for instance that evil Cubans attacked their embassy staff with microwave weapons!
By the way, one of the reasons why Cubans don't buy into the microwave story is that, unlike CIA agents, they know what crickets and cicadas sound like.
I do know how impossible it is. By the way, the USA shows that the lack of information isn't the major problem nowadays. Disinformation is. The USA is now chock-full of delusional QAnon cultists who have even taken over one of the two political parties. Isn't it great to live in a country where people have the freedom to believe that their political opponents eat children? You must be so proud of the American level of information. I am sure the Cubans envy you!
Yes, and your post is ignorant, too.