[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[caveman1917]

https://twitter.com/hashtag/onsvalentines?src=hashtag_click

There are some really good ones in there.

 

[Sherkeu]

There are some really good ones in there.

So without having to go read about the whole science of the census...
Are they adding a gender question as something extra? or actually using it as a real measure of # of men and # of women?

Because the second one would truly be insane and would erode the ability to track a whole bunch of public issues.

 

[caveman1917]

So without having to go read about the whole science of the census...
Are they adding a gender question as something extra? or actually using it as a real measure of # of men and # of women?

Because the second one would truly be insane and would erode the ability to track a whole bunch of public issues.

As far as I understand it the problem is that they are now allowing the answer to the "sex" question to be whatever the individual identifies as, rather than their actual "birth sex" as it used to be.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

(A couple of days old, I know, but....)
I think it's the opposite sex, and this is more true for women.


I don't think the average woman is all that concerned about modesty in the presence of lesbians, assuming the lesbian's behavior isn't problematic.

I think guys might be a little bit more squeamish about being naked in front of a gay guy. I'm not, anymore, but I will admit the first time I took a shower in a locker room after one of my friends came out of the closet, it was a bit awkward for me. That lasted about 10 minutes. (He was someone that I frequently joined in athletic competitions with, so taking a shower in his presence wasn't unusual.)

Maybe everyone is modest in the presence of a male if we think the male might be enjoying the view. For females, there's at least some doubt about that even among people who are gay or who we think might be gay.

It's very hard to sort out what is social conditioning and what is instinct among humans. I have a feeling that modesty is at least partially instinctive, and is definitely sex-linked, but proving that would be difficult or impossible.

I posted a link to a story of a lesbian girl being ejected from a school locker room over very similar concerns about modesty. Such complaints about modesty were very common during the years of the gay rights debates, less so now. Prior to the more mainstream acceptance of homosexual people, very similar complaints about modesty were made.

I think you're likely right that today most people would not raise an objection, but only because the social norms have moved enough that many no longer feel this way about gay and lesbian people, or at the least have the common sense not to raise an objection for fear of social backlash.

 

[caveman1917]

I posted a link to a story of a lesbian girl being ejected from a school locker room over very similar concerns about modesty. Such complaints about modesty were very common during the years of the gay rights debates, less so now. Prior to the more mainstream acceptance of homosexual people, very similar complaints about modesty were made.

I think you're likely right that today most people would not raise an objection, but only because the social norms have moved enough that many no longer feel this way about gay and lesbian people, or at the least have the common sense not to raise an objection for fear of social backlash.

You're still ignoring that the rates are completely different because about 95% of the population is heterosexual. A woman, when presented with 20 women in a locker room, should only expect about 1 to be prone to the "lustful eyes" thing whereas, when presented with 20 men in a locker room, she should expect about 19 of them to be. In one case we're talking about some rare exception, in the other we're talking about the vast majority.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I question this. I don't think it was the rule, but rather an occasional thing especially in the deep South. Toilets were fairly expensive to start with, plus the available real estate to make an extra washroom is a real cost. Googling a little showed the same one or two images over and over, not the many thousands expected. There were more dual fountains than separate unisex washrooms.

you've discovered the lie of "separate but equal". Sure, not that many buildings had redundant toilets. Instead, black people simply didn't have one they could use. It was very common for buildings to have only a "White's only" restroom.

I simply don't know what to tell you if you don't believe that racial segregation in public bathrooms was not rigorously enforced. This is a stunning ignorance of the relevant history.

You are correct that there were not redundant restrooms everywhere. Black people simply did not have access to public restrooms in white parts of society. This was a small facet of Jim Crow that intended to keep blacks in their place, by making simple existence outside the designated niche established by the white supremacist state impossible. Outside of the black parts of town, it would be very difficult indeed to perform the basic biological necessities of life, be it using toilets, buying food, using transit, and so on. That was the whole point, to prevent comingling of blacks and whites by building these barriers that made sharing the same spaces impractical.

Finding a place to take a piss was such a problem for black motorists that a popular guide book, the Green Book, was published listing restrooms, hotels, and other necessities that were available to black patrons.

Black travelers often had to carry buckets or portable toilets in the trunks of their cars because they were usually barred from bathrooms and rest areas in service stations and roadside stops.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Motorist_Green_Book

 

[TurkeysGhost]

You're still ignoring that the rates are completely different because about 95% of the population is heterosexual. A woman, when presented with 20 women in a locker room, should only expect about 1 to be prone to the "lustful eyes" thing whereas, when presented with 20 men in a locker room, she should expect about 19 of them to be. In one case we're talking about some rare exception, in the other we're talking about the vast majority.

I don't follow your point. Trans women are even more rare than lesbian women.

 

[Sherkeu]

I posted a link to a story of a lesbian girl being ejected from a school locker room over very similar concerns about modesty. Such complaints about modesty were very common during the years of the gay rights debates, less so now. Prior to the more mainstream acceptance of homosexual people, very similar complaints about modesty were made.

I think you're likely right that today most people would not raise an objection, but only because the social norms have moved enough that many no longer feel this way about gay and lesbian people, or at the least have the common sense not to raise an objection for fear of social backlash.

You really have no idea what you are talking about with respect to women's modesty. We had several lesbians in my all-girl high school. When one of them revealed her 'crush' on another friend, that's when things got into an 'avoid' stage. But not because of modesty concerns. Otherwise, we were all friends.

But a boy or man in there? TOTALLY different. Female bodies are not a mystery to females body owners. It's just not a big deal, lesbian or not.

If you had not figured it out my now, females aren't as visually enticed as males. FACT. Deny it, and suffer my wrath of avalanching facts about it. Or...just look at the market for naked bodies and see who the customers are. Please do not gaslight us females or distort reality. We ALL know it to be true from all of human history in every place and culture, everywhere.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

You really have no idea what you are talking about with respect to women's modesty. We had several lesbians in my all-girl high school. When one of them revealed her 'crush' on another friend, that's when things got into an 'avoid' stage. But not because of modesty concerns. Otherwise, we were all friends.

But a boy or man in there? TOTALLY different. Female bodies are not a mystery to females body owners. It's just not a big deal, lesbian or not.

Cool anecdote.

I posted a link to a story where the ACLU had to become involved to protect the rights of a lesbian girl to use a sex-segregated locker room. Here's the press release in case you missed it.

LOS ANGELES - The American Civil Liberties Union of Southern California and the National Center for Lesbian Rights today filed a lawsuit on behalf of Ashly Massey, an eighth grader from the rural town of Banning who was forced to sit in the principal's office during physical education class after the gym teacher heard that she was a lesbian.

According to the legal complaint, soon after the gym teacher heard that Ashly was a lesbian, she called Ashly's mother to inform her that there was a problem with Ashly being in the girl's locker room because of Ashly's sexual orientation.

https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-sues-behalf-ca-8th-grader-barred-gym-class-because-sexual-orientation

An embarrassing history that the bathroom defenders would rather not be brought up I'm sure.

 

[caveman1917]

I don't follow your point. Trans women are even more rare than lesbian women.

It depends on what policy exactly you'd use. If you only allow fully-transitioned transwomen they'll be very rare, if you go by self-id they'll be less rare but it also becomes more prone to abuse, all the way up to simply having unisex facilities with no separation at all. The only data I've seen so far on sexual harassment (not full-blown assault, but simply harassing behaviour like what we're focusing on) compared single-sex to unisex facilities in the UK and found significantly higher incidence rates in the latter.

 

[Sherkeu]

Cool anecdote.

I posted a link to a story where the ACLU had to become involved to protect the rights of a lesbian girl to use a sex-segregated locker room. Here's the press release in case you missed it.



https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-sues-behalf-ca-8th-grader-barred-gym-class-because-sexual-orientation

An embarrassing history that the bathroom defenders would rather not be brought up I'm sure.

It was a stupid complaint (by an adult btw) and decision. End of story.

What is your point? That men in women's locker rooms is fine because one single girl Ashly was wrongly banned in her rural town by some asshats? I agree with the ACLU!!

 

[TurkeysGhost]

It was a stupid complaint and decision. End of story.

What is your point? That men in women's locker rooms is fine because one single girl Ashly was wrongly banned in her rural town by some asshats?

My point is that panic mongering about queer sex pests in locker rooms is a bad-faith tactic decades old.

 

[Sherkeu]

My point is that panic mongering about queer sex pests in locker rooms is a bad-faith tactic decades old.

Ok...so lets just let all the kids be one big locker room, queer, bi, straight, male, female, non-binary. Genitals matter not one whit. Why does just a piece of flesh or outdated modesty matter in education or when you just need to get dressed? How silly and unevolved that is!!
That way no one feels excluded or feel like they are in the wrong space. 100% inclusion. No male. No female. No segregation.
They will all just get used to it.
What do you think. Good policy?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Ok...so lets just let all the kids be one big locker room, queer, bi, straight, male, female, non-binary. Genitals matter not one whit. That way no one feels excluded or that they feel like they are in the wrong space. No male. No female. No segregation.
They will all just get used to it.
What do you think. Good policy?

I think personal privacy is the best way to ensure personal privacy. I don't necessarily believe sex-segregated spaces need to end, but there should be a general acknowledgement that our understanding of people who aren't cis and heterosexual exist and that sex-segregation alone is not adequate to provide an attraction free environment.


I don't see why trans people need to be thrown under the bus when the obvious solution of just adding privacy screens is available. Even beyond the trans debate, most people would probably prefer more, not less, privacy in these spaces. Just give it to them.

I have a sneaking suspicion that even if such personal privacy was guaranteed and modesty/safety were no longer a concern, the most virulent TERFs would still object to trans inclusion. It's as much about sending a message that trans people are the "other" than it is about any practical concerns

 

[d4m10n]

And then read this medical paper in full (pdf):

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...gg.2017.0005&usg=AOvVaw2nmY157Yd9ReuFyTQF5KK-

Here is their definition of woman:
"One of two binary categories of gender, typically associated with feminine behaviors and constructs."

I seem to recall getting a fair bit of pushback for suggesting a similar definition awhile back.

 

[Sherkeu]

I think personal privacy is the best way to ensure personal privacy. I don't necessarily believe sex-segregated spaces need to end, but there should be a general acknowledgement that our understanding of people who aren't cis and heterosexual exist and that sex-segregation alone is not adequate to provide an attraction free environment.


I don't see why trans people need to be thrown under the bus when the obvious solution of just adding privacy screens is available. Even beyond the trans debate, most people would probably prefer more, not less, privacy in these spaces. Just give it to them.

I have a sneaking suspicion that even if such personal privacy was guaranteed and modesty/safety were no longer a concern, the most virulent TERFs would still object to trans inclusion. It's as much about sending a message that trans people are the "other" than it is about any practical concerns

In a High School setting, about 85% of the trans kids will desist if not put on a bunch of medical inteventions so maybe one big room is possible with a LOT of privacy.

Also if the spaces are shared, you'll need to give a class on the difference between shampoo, hairgel, and ejaculate to keep the kids sanitary and, to be honest, not totally grossed out.. Also need to tell some of them that blood spatter and clots on the floor are not from a murder. Then have some sort of lock box for disposing the blood items. The non-menstruators will need some education if they see blood coming into the shared drain.

Maybe they even need to have separate showers in the same area....oh but then we are back to segregation...gah!

 

[lionking]

I think personal privacy is the best way to ensure personal privacy. I don't necessarily believe sex-segregated spaces need to end, but there should be a general acknowledgement that our understanding of people who aren't cis and heterosexual exist and that sex-segregation alone is not adequate to provide an attraction free environment.


I don't see why trans people need to be thrown under the bus when the obvious solution of just adding privacy screens is available. Even beyond the trans debate, most people would probably prefer more, not less, privacy in these spaces. Just give it to them.

I have a sneaking suspicion that even if such personal privacy was guaranteed and modesty/safety were no longer a concern, the most virulent TERFs would still object to trans inclusion. It's as much about sending a message that trans people are the "other" than it is about any practical concerns

Your use of TERF for everyone who doesn’t agree with every detail of your opinions is wrong, telling and ********. Just stop.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Your use of TERF for everyone who doesn’t agree with every detail of your opinions is wrong, telling and ********. Just stop.

Lol be mad. A hit dog will holler, or so I've been told.

Read my post again. I suspect that addressing privacy concerns would please a large portion of the anti-trans voices in this debate, but a smaller fringe of TERFs would still insist on the divide for purely symbolic reasons largely driven by animus. TERFs and right wing extremists would probably agree on this animus-driven stance, though for slightly different reasons.

There's a thread for pearl clutching about the term TERF (among others). Feel free to participate there where it isn't off topic.

 

[Manger Douse]

Jehovah.





"First though, it is necessary to point out that the terms sex and gender are not synonyms. Sex refers to the biological differences between males and females. Gender refers to the continuum of complex psychosocial self-perceptions, attitudes, and expectations people have about members of both sexes. Even the terms male and female, man and woman are not interchangeable. What it means to be male or female originates from physical characteristics derived from sex chromosomes and genes that lead to certain gonads, internal and external genitalia, and physiological hormones. Being a man or a woman holds broader meaning, with cultural concepts of masculinity and femininity coming into play."



https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/sex-gender-and-why-differences-matter/2008-07







"'Sex' and 'gender' are often used interchangeably, despite having different meanings:



Sex refers to a set of biological attributes in humans and animals. It is primarily associated with physical and physiological features including chromosomes, gene expression, hormone levels and function, and reproductive/sexual anatomy. Sex is usually categorized as female or male but there is variation in the biological attributes that comprise sex and how those attributes are expressed.



Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, expressions and identities of girls, women, boys, men, and gender diverse people. It influences how people perceive themselves and each other, how they act and interact, and the distribution of power and resources in society. Gender identity is not confined to a binary (girl/woman, boy/man) nor is it static; it exists along a continuum and can change over time. There is considerable diversity in how individuals and groups understand, experience and express gender through the roles they take on, the expectations placed on them, relations with others and the complex ways that gender is institutionalized in society."



https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/48642.html







"Sex is a biological trait that is determined by the specific sex chromosomes inherited from one’s parents. In humans, male sex is determined (with a few exceptions) by the presence of the Y chromosome. A gene on the Y chromosome directs the differentiation of the fetal gonads into testes, resulting in the production of testosterone — which affects many of the body’s tissues — early in development. People with one X and one Y chromosome, or variants like XXY or XYY, are typically male, while those who have solely X chromosomes are usually female. People have a sex; animals have a sex; all tissues, including the fetal placenta, have a sex; even individual cells have a sex.



Gender, on the other hand, is socially, culturally and personally defined. It includes how individuals see themselves (gender identity), how others perceive them and expect them to behave (gender norms), and the interactions (gender relations) that they have with others. Often one’s gender aligns with one’s sex: Men tend to assume more masculine behaviors and traits, and to be seen as masculine by others around them, for example. But not always. Increasingly, researchers like Stefanick and Schiebinger are realizing that both men and women exhibit a spectrum of gender traits that aren’t purely masculine or feminine."



https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017sp...-not-the-same-thing-influence-our-health.html







"Gender, according to the Global Health 50/50 definition, refers to the socially constructed norms that impose and determine roles, relationships, and positional power for all people across their lifetime. Gender interacts with sex, the biological and physical characteristics that define women, men, and those with intersex identities. Gender is not a binary term. It includes the understanding that in many people, traits of masculinity or femininity coexist and are expressed to different degrees. Gender attributes are fluid; more than two thirds of women and men report gender-related characteristics traditionally attributed to the opposite sex. In transgender people, gender identity differs with the sex they were assigned at birth. So far, transgender people have generally been underrepresented in clinical studies to date, although this underrepresentation is changing. Gender is an equally important variable as biological sex in human health, and influences the behaviour of communities, clinicians, and patients. Gender roles represent the behavioural norms applied to men and women in society, which influence individuals' everyday actions, expectations, and experiences, including diet, perceived stress, smoking, and physical activity, and affect health and disease susceptibility. Gender identity describes the fluidity of how a person perceives oneself as a woman or a man, which affects feelings and behaviours. Gender relations refer to how we interact with or are treated by people, on the basis of our ascribed gender. Institutionalised gender reflects the distribution of power between men and women in the political, educational, and social institutions in society and shapes social norms that define, perpetuate, and often justify different expectations and opportunities for women and men."



https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31561-0/fulltext







And then read this medical paper in full (pdf):



https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...gg.2017.0005&usg=AOvVaw2nmY157Yd9ReuFyTQF5KK-







And then..... stop asking this stupid question (for which the answer was obvious long ago to anyone who knows anything about the subject and who also wishes to debate/discuss in good faith)

There's nothing that says Trans women are Women and should be treated as such which was your claim

 

[Sherkeu]

Your use of TERF for everyone who doesn’t agree with every detail of your opinions is wrong, telling and ********. Just stop.

I do see that term thrown around a lot, as if anyone that agrees is some card carrying sycophant. I have no such label for myself. Never been a feminist, or a 'radical' on anything. haha. I don't know anyone in my circle who would consider themselves any such thing.

Even saying 'TRA' isn't fair really since activists argue vehemently amongst themselves about all this too. (and this is sort of new knowledge to me since a lot has been scrubbed/canceled from the internet and harder to find)