Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

[Meadmaker]

Okay.



From what I've seen, it's not that simple. The question of how one can be declaring a gender but not choosing it, is in some cases answered by apparent TRAs by suggesting maybe it is a choice.

https://clareflourish.wordpress.com/2016/02/09/developing-gender-dysphoria/

https://clareflourish.wordpress.com...m-autogynephilia-late-onset-gender-dysphoria/

I don't know how she squares that circle.

This is a very interesting blog post. Seriously, folks. It is a very rare thing. It's by a transwomen who admits that autogynophilia is a real thing, and part of her motivation for a sex change operation. (Uhhh....I think the politically correct term is "gender affirmation surgery".)

The person seems to have her head on straight in a way that not a lot of trans people or trans rights activists do. She seems capable of recognizing reality.

On the other hand, while reading it and considering her history, keep in mind that the goal of modern trans rights activism is to allow her to share a locker room with teenage girls on the swim team, long before she ever had surgery, and regardless of whether she had ever decided to physically transition.

 

[Collin237]

I really get sick of this identity politics crap.

"Are you this or that or this or that. I need to know whether to shun the group you have to belong to as it is easier than talking to you as an individual"

Exactly my complaint about this thread.

 

[Sherkeu]

I wonder who is going to provide the free hormones after the medical industrial complex is abolished.

I had to go look at this. Quite a disconnect between "We will do it ourselves" BUT "You must provide it for us- on demand and for free".

There will be no clinics, and no authorities. We will conduct our own research, and experiment with our own bodies. We will heal and grow together. We will accumulate knowledge and share it freely and accessibly. We demand nothing less than the total abolition of the clinic, of psychiatry, and of the medical-industrial complex. We demand an end to capitalist & colonialist “medicine”.

We demand hormones & blockers are made available over-the-counter and by free prescription upon request. We need free, universal access to safe hormones & blockers at any age, the opportunity to decide our own doses, and universally accessible information on the safety & efficacy of different regimens.

I did not alter the flow of this quote. The second part immediately follows the first.

 

[Collin237]

This is a very interesting blog post. Seriously, folks. It is a very rare thing. It's by a transwomen who admits that autogynophilia is a real thing, and part of her motivation for a sex change operation. (Uhhh....I think the politically correct term is "gender affirmation surgery".)

The person seems to have her head on straight in a way that not a lot of trans people or trans rights activists do. She seems capable of recognizing reality.

On the other hand, while reading it and considering her history, keep in mind that the goal of modern trans rights activism is to allow her to share a locker room with teenage girls on the swim team, long before she ever had surgery, and regardless of whether she had ever decided to physically transition.

It looks like I've finally contributed to this thread. This is probably my last post.

 

[d4m10n]

Exactly my complaint about this thread.

Culture war threads tend towards two distinct camps, at least from what I've seen. Typically one group prefers the status quo ante and the other one is pushing the sort of progressive reforms supported by mainstream rights groups like the ACLU or the SPLC.

In this thread, the status quo is (or was) segregation by sex in various spaces and leagues. Reformers want to see those spaces segregated by gender identity going forward. Each group has its own jargon (e.g. TERF, TIM) and tend not to define the key words in the same way.

 

[Rolfe]

I wonder who is going to provide the free hormones after the medical industrial complex is abolished.

I'm not sure those guys have really thought this through. They're not terribly bright. It could be all these unauthorised drugs they admit to taking I suppose.

 

[Rolfe]

Seen on twitter.

"Only men could oppress women for thousands of years, then turn around, put on a dress, and complain that they are the most marginalized group in society." --Kara Dansky

 

[caveman1917]

I'm not sure those guys have really thought this through. They're not terribly bright. It could be all these unauthorised drugs they admit to taking I suppose.

I've had some interactions with them, they're of the dangerously nuts variety. They're perfectly capable in their narcissistic hubris of actually starting to "operate" on people without any medical training and badly messing things up.

 

[LondonJohn]

Just peeking into this voluminous thread again...

You guys work out the question "what is a woman?" yet? Really doesn't seem that tough after years and five digits of posts.

A woman is an adult human biological female. Is that in contention?

Gender is what you subjectively and internally identify as. Is that in contention?

Gender disphoria is a misnomer, since it is internally subjective. You can't choose to identify "wrong". It's sex disphoria. Is that in contention?

I mean, if some just change the definitions to mean whatever else they want, this goes on forever, yes?

Ummmmm

Of the three questions you posed here, only the second one is correct.

Maybe this will help:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/envi...isthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21


(And - as this linked paper points out - in the strict context of debate/definition/legislation of transgender issues, the term "woman" is exclusively used to refer to gender (and not biological sex), while the term "female" is exclusively used to refer to biological sex (and not to gender). This is why your first question is wrong.)

 

[LondonJohn]

This is a very interesting blog post. Seriously, folks. It is a very rare thing. It's by a transwomen who admits that autogynophilia is a real thing, and part of her motivation for a sex change operation. (Uhhh....I think the politically correct term is "gender affirmation surgery".)

The person seems to have her head on straight in a way that not a lot of trans people or trans rights activists do. She seems capable of recognizing reality.

On the other hand, while reading it and considering her history, keep in mind that the goal of modern trans rights activism is to allow her to share a locker room with teenage girls on the swim team, long before she ever had surgery, and regardless of whether she had ever decided to physically transition.

Jeez. Can you really not get your head around the fact that many transgender people face a struggle to understand their own lived condition: they know they don't strictly conform to the gender which correlates to their biological sex 100% of the time, but they don't know quite why they experience this condition. And there's also the fact that for a (very small) proportion of males who desire to live and present as women, their desire is wholly or partially driven by autogynephilia.

But neither of these things should have anything more than a very slight impact upon society's need to recognise and protect transgender rights, and nor should they (or, indeed, nor do they) impact on the way the world's experts in the relevant fields understand and categorise gender dysphoria and transidentity.


What you're trying to do here, in essence, is similar to a) discovering a condition where a very small proportion of gay males determine in their minds that they're just "playing" at being gay, rather than being intrinsically gay, and they b) using this as some sort of rationale for denying/disavowing homosexuality itself as a genuine lived condition.

 

[LondonJohn]

Oh dear. "Skeptics forum"? This calls for a DPRK analogy, I think.

In any case, this particular thread is foundering because the "TRA side" refuses to define anything. Probably because any definition is going to put limits on trans privilege, and on society's obligations to transsexuals.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/envi...isthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21

Perhaps your statement should be modified to something like:

This particular thread is foundering because the "anti-TRA side" refuses to accept (or even, apparently, notice) that at least one "TRA side" poster has now repeatedly supplied definitions - the "anti-TRA side" mendaciously pretends instead that no such definitions have been provided, and uses that (entirely incorrect) conclusion as some sort of weapon to attack the "TRA side"

 

[Matthew Best]

Ummmmm

Of the three questions you posed here, only the second one is correct.

Maybe this will help:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/envi...isthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21


(And - as this linked paper points out - in the strict context of debate/definition/legislation of transgender issues, the term "woman" is exclusively used to refer to gender (and not biological sex), while the term "female" is exclusively used to refer to biological sex (and not to gender). This is why your first question is wrong.)

So is there an actual word that means "adult human biological female"?

 

[Sherkeu]

Jeez. Can you really not get your head around the fact that many transgender people face a struggle to understand their own lived condition: they know they don't strictly conform to the gender which correlates to their biological sex 100% of the time, but they don't know quite why they experience this condition. And there's also the fact that for a (very small) proportion of males who desire to live and present as women, their desire is wholly or partially driven by autogynephilia.

But neither of these things should have anything more than a very slight impact upon society's need to recognise and protect transgender rights, and nor should they (or, indeed, nor do they) impact on the way the world's experts in the relevant fields understand and categorise gender dysphoria and transidentity.


What you're trying to do here, in essence, is similar to a) discovering a condition where a very small proportion of gay males determine in their minds that they're just "playing" at being gay, rather than being intrinsically gay, and they b) using this as some sort of rationale for denying/disavowing homosexuality itself as a genuine lived condition.

The actual xx-vagina-ova-having women in this thread realize this is a real condition. We also have our own 'lived experience' of having an instinctual reaction to many of these 'trans women' as 'NOT a woman' (but we can be kind and accommodating for the most part).

For the things we find cross a 'sex' based line, we are told to just 'get over it'.
Somehow our own lived experiences as biological women is not so important as that of someone having the condition of deeply and seriously wanting to be a facsimile of a woman.

 

[Manger Douse]

Ummmmm

Of the three questions you posed here, only the second one is correct.

Maybe this will help:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/envi...isthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21


(And - as this linked paper points out - in the strict context of debate/definition/legislation of transgender issues, the term "woman" is exclusively used to refer to gender (and not biological sex), while the term "female" is exclusively used to refer to biological sex (and not to gender). This is why your first question is wrong.)

I thought it was the DSM that said that transwomen are women, not the office of national statistics?

 

[caveman1917]

I thought it was the DSM that said that transwomen are women, not the office of national statistics?

LondonJohn's reference doesn't even say that transwomen are women, only that feminine people are women. For example an effeminate gay man is a woman according to this website, whereas a masculine lesbian is a man.

 

[Manger Douse]

LondonJohn's reference doesn't even say that transwomen are women, only that feminine people are women. For example an effeminate gay man is a woman according to this website, whereas a masculine lesbian is a man.

I was just wondering why he was apparently citing the National Bureau of Statistics as the experts and not say, a group dealing with mental health

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

 

[Francesca R]

many transgender people face a struggle to understand their own lived condition: they know they don't strictly conform to the gender which correlates to their biological sex 100% of the time, but they don't know quite why they experience this condition.

Agreed.

And there's also the fact that for a (very small) proportion of males who desire to live and present as women, their desire is wholly or partially driven by autogynephilia.

I have heard this to be true but don't know what the incidence rate is.

At some point in the history of this thread it was briefly raised whether the popularity of lesbian erotic material (popularity with men) was connected with this to any extent. IIRC most of the response was an irritated "No that's baloney" but one member said that his personal experience of such stuff definitely contained an AGP element.

But neither of these things should have anything more than a very slight impact upon society's need to recognise and protect transgender rights, and nor should they (or, indeed, nor do they) impact on the way the world's experts in the relevant fields understand and categorise gender dysphoria and transidentity.

Agreed.

 

[Francesca R]

Can we agree that for example a poster saying a handful of posts above here explicitly that 'transwomen are not women' is transphobic?

No I don't believe so.

 

[Francesca R]

[Nicola Sturgeon] needs to go and we probably need a new party. I'm just staying in for the entertainment value of being thrown out for believing mammals can't change sex, at this rate.

I would never have expected to read this from you in advance of frozen hell.

(I see the schism plainly however.)

 

[Matthew Best]

Welcome back, incidentally.