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Cancel culture IRL

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I was specifically drawing the parallel with action being taken due to a twitter mob highlighting unacceptable behaviour. That seems to be the working definition of "cancel culture".

Except, not really. It seems to be the same people who, a few years ago, were whining about "Free speech" when they found that Twitter didn't support their death/rape threats against others, and who insist that "free speech" means that everyone should have to listen to them and whoever they agree with - but who typically scream and cry when anyone else expresses an opinion they don't - thus the pseudo-boycotts against Keurig, Gillette, and Nike.

My post was simply to point out that the "cancel" in "cancel culture" referred to actually cancelling public appearances of serial rapists, child sex slavers, and the like. The shift from clearly disgusting cases like that, to "I was banned from Twitter for posting revenge porn!" is, to put it mildly, not equivalent.
 
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People also just seem to be mad that social media lets people talk about things.

I'm sorry you live in a world where your racists rant can reach every corner of the Globe instead of just whatever neighbors were walking past when you were making it. Cry me a river.

Now, before the strawman open ended contextless "Okay but what about da exact opposite extreme?" argument that Dullards think is high clever comes around, no this doesn't mean we are obligated to agree with every specific case of "Cancel Culture." I'm sure everyone here will readily admit that they can, without too much mental strain, think or an incident or two where they, personally, did not agree with why a person was "cancelled." But that proves, indeed means nothing. I think my sister broke up with her boyfriend for a stupid reason, that doesn't mean I need to go online and rail against "Breakup Culture."

"Cancel Culture" is just the growing realization of broader and broader previously marginalized groups of society that they don't have an onus to put up with toxic people for absolutely no reason.
 
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People also just seem to be mad that social media lets people talk about things.

I'm sorry you live in a world where your racists rant can reach every corner of the Globe instead of just whatever neighbors were walking past when you were making. Cry me a river.

Now, before the strawman open ended contextless "Okay but what about da exact opposite extreme?" argument that Dullards think is high clever comes around, no this doesn't mean we are obligated to agree with every specific case of "Cancel Culture." I'm sure everyone here will readily admit that they can, without too much mental strain, think or an incident or two where they, personally, did not agree with why a person was "cancelled." But that proves, indeed means nothing. I think my sister broke up with her boyfriend for a stupid reason, that doesn't mean I need to go online and rail against "Breakup Culture."

"Cancel Culture" is just the growing realization of broader and broader previously marginalized groups of society that they don't have an onus to put up with toxic people for absolutely no reason.

Couldn't agree with this more.

Some of the most prominent critics of cancel culture are people in legacy positions that previously would have had tremendous gatekeeping power when it comes to civic discourse. Senior journalists and editors, politicians, and so on.

Now anybody on Twitter or Facebook can say something, and if it's popular enough, it gets passed around. Worse yet, some Washington Post editor will get roundly mocked as a ******* if they say something foolish.

The gatekeepers of culture are mad that fences are coming down. Us rubes can talk amongst ourselves without their guiding hand, and it drives them nuts.
 
Bingo.

If someone is caught on film screaming slurs, while hanging out of a company van with the company's name and phone number prominently displayed, and it's posted on Twitter or wherever, that's likely to end in a fully justified termination of employment.

In the other end, there's stuff like Gamergate, which was started when some guy alleged that his girlfriend slept with a journalist in exchange for a good review (a review which didn't exist). Or the teen girl that wore a Chinese dress to her prom. Those are just harassment campaigns - very different than the former.

Apparently, the first and third are "cancel culture", while the second is not for some reason. The reason being the supposed political alignment of the people involved.

:confused: I would think that the guy screaming racial slurs from a company vehicle while on the clock is NOT AT ALL cancel culture.

Gamergate and the Chinese dress are Cancel Culture.

It's especially cancel culture when the harassment involves doxxing of a stranger so that they can be personally harassed and threatening their employer in order to get them fired.
 
Something tells me that the "cancel culture" folks would not be supportive of an increase in labor rights that prevent an employer to fire an employee for off-the-job bad behavior. No would they celebrate increasing unionization.

Something should tell you that your mind reading skills are pretty bad.

Increased labor rights and increase unionization would be great in many sectors. Unions can create their own problems sometimes, but for the most part they're a fantastic way of balancing the power dynamic.
 
Everytime anyone suggests any standards be applied to anyone at anytime, someone will be there to remind us about the possibility of someone somewhere applying the standards badly. I fail to be swayed that this is a valid argument as to why we shouldn't apply standards.

How about... you shouldn't apply arbitrary subjective standards? Would you be on board for that?
 
How about... you shouldn't apply arbitrary subjective standards? Would you be on board for that?

No. Because I don't want to have a pointless sidejack discussion about which standards are "subjective" and "arbitrary."

When a pillow manufacturer who helped a coup is one of the valid examples on the table, we can worry about the edge cases later. Way later.
 
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No. Because I don't want to have a pointless sidejack discussion about which standards are "subjective" and "arbitrary."

When a about a pillow manufacturer who helped a coup is one of the valid examples on the table, we can worry about the edge cases later. Way later.

Yea it is now important to know if your bedding manufacturers support insurrection or not. But using that as a part of the decision process on what pillow to buy is of course right up there with nazism.
 
How about someone from the start of the whole cancel culture war, Bill O'Reilly. Sure he had a long history of sexually harassing's his employees, but that was not a big deal and certainly nothing worth firing him over, but when this started to cost them advertisers suddenly a little harmless talk of rubbing falafel over his employee in the shower is right out.

There was a decade of solid proof that no one cared that he sexually harrassed his employees, but then cancel culture comes along and he loses his job!
 
Predictably, your link does not work. But thanks for dropping all this knowledge, maaaaan. Who knew about social desirability bias or that question-wording (and order) matters?

Hmm. I just clicked on the link as it appears in your quote, and it works just fine for me. Honestly, if it's that predictable for you that links don't work, you should really check your firewall or child protection settings or something.

A couple of problems. This cuts at the distinction made earlier between what one's legally permitted to do and what one ought to do.

Not sure how that has anything to do with anything. It's not about it being illegal to do a misleading poll, nor does the proposed alternate question ask "should it be illegal" or anything of the kind.

Sure, it's not illegal to lie. It's not illegal to use fallacies. It's not illegal to do a deliberately deceptive poll. And I certainly don't propose to make any of that illegal.

There's not even any real "ought" in what I wrote, or at least not in any moral sense, for anyone doing a poll.

The question was only whether you should trust the conclusion of any of that. And no, if it's improperly supported, you shouldn't. Is all I'm saying.

It also isolates the choice, ignoring the broader social context. In a way, it's similar to Nozick's famous Wilt Chamberlain argument (and concomitant vulnerability to the fallacy of composition).

Also fully irrelevant.
 
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Everytime anyone suggests any standards be applied to anyone at anytime, someone will be there to remind us about the possibility of someone somewhere applying the standards badly. I fail to be swayed that this is a valid argument as to why we shouldn't apply standards.

This. It's like insisting that the rule of law is bad, because one can point at a small minority of miscarriage of justice.

Actually even shoddier. In the case of miscarriages of justice, we have a list of provably wrong sentences, some even death sentences. Many having actually resulted in an actual execution.

In the case of the supposed horrors of "cancel culture", the best I've seen so far is a shoddy list of two dozen cases or so that keep being rehashed, and the vast majority are actually ranging from "wasn't actually cancelled" (see the case that started this thread) to "actually fully deserved it" (see the case early in the thread of the woman cancelling herself for trying to cancel some bystander, then playing victim) to "we don't actually know what happened there, so let's pretend it's a clear cut case of cancel culture."
 
How about... you shouldn't apply arbitrary subjective standards? Would you be on board for that?

What would you propose, though? As I've said before, the only way to stop this from happening is to

1. somehow enforce that people can't talk about any other people. Bearing in mind that we already have laws against slander and libel, as well as a few other laws against threats, incitement, conspiracy and whatnot. So you don't just have to forbid those, since they're already forbidden in the first place. You'd have to literally forbid everyone from posting or telling any truthful information about anyone else.

2. that people are somehow forced to keep buying from a company they bought from at least once, no matter what they think of the company, its employees or even its products. You know, to make sure nobody can put undue pressure on the company to change whatever they're doing, or with whom they're doing it.

How is that solution not

A. worse than the problem. I mean, not even the worst totalitarian regimes went anywhere NEARLY as far as #1, and even serfdom didn't go as far as #2. And

B. just as arbitrary.
 
Anyhow, he got invited onto NewsmaxTV to whinge about cancel culture, but couldn't help himself and started ranting about the election and Dominion voting machines... and they cancelled him!

The fact that they don't get that it's exactly the same thing for exactly the same reason is truly astonishing. Well, it's not because it's par for the course, but it's astonishing that that is par for the course.

There's also something very telling there. When he's asked whether he thinks the ban is temporary or permanent, he says that he wants is to be permanent. There's nothing so helpful to this kind of person as being able to claim victimhood.
 
Except, not really. It seems to be the same people who, a few years ago, were whining about "Free speech" when they found that Twitter didn't support their death/rape threats against others, and who insist that "free speech" means that everyone should have to listen to them and whoever they agree with - but who typically scream and cry when anyone else expresses an opinion they don't - thus the pseudo-boycotts against Keurig, Gillette, and Nike.

My post was simply to point out that the "cancel" in "cancel culture" referred to actually cancelling public appearances of serial rapists, child sex slavers, and the like. The shift from clearly disgusting cases like that, to "I was banned from Twitter for posting revenge porn!" is, to put it mildly, not equivalent.

I think we're talking at cross-purposes, because I don't disagree with you, and I don't think you're disagreeing with me.
 
The fact that they don't get that it's exactly the same thing for exactly the same reason is truly astonishing. Well, it's not because it's par for the course, but it's astonishing that that is par for the course.

There's also something very telling there. When he's asked whether he thinks the ban is temporary or permanent, he says that he wants is to be permanent. There's nothing so helpful to this kind of person as being able to claim victimhood.

People being "In bubbles" doesn't just apply to what opinions they hold, it applies to how they argue.

You can tell when someone has never really had to argue, not debate, against someone with a differing opinion effectively.
 
Everyone is selfish, biased and a rationalizing hypocrite by nature. That's the baseline. People can and do rise above, so to speak. That's potentially laudable, but not in itself a demand anyone can make on others... and just what "above" means to anyone can differ wildly. In the abstract, then, who is anyone to call anyone else out? Indeed, what call is there for one to be anything but an unrestrained savage, hellbent on self-interest, with all means justifying any end and all whims?

Once there is context, however, then whatever call there may be for or against anything is a question of which mores are in play and under what justifiable conditions sanctions might be applied. In any event, it is the case that social behaviors breaking implicit or explicit norms are, and must be, commonly called out, as this is how social convention shapes culture and language, and provides a common field of semantic and communicative play (Johnny, we say "went", not "goed"), making coexistence feasible. Not a problem, normally, if social mores are largely shared, and the rule of law prevails under applicable circumstances.* The calling out becomes strident and tensions rise, however, when the context/worldview and/or the mores are not shared by people who are in ongoing social contact. The internet, in this sense, has closed what was previously a natural distancing of strongly differing worldviews and social mores, heightening the contemporary chance for strong conflict while yet reinforcing stereotypes through the cliqish behaviors enchanced by social media and propaganda, thus contributing as well to a potentially greater general sense of malaise, and of perceived danger, by all involved.

"Political correctness" and "cancel culture" are terms used to describe when one side complains the other is improperly enforcing some unshared rule or standard (the latter having practical consequences as described in this thread). This, in my view, highlights the importance of there being a social contract, viz, to the effect that rationality should prevail over woo, that facts are veridical, and that, in any case, no appeals to absolutism should or can, logically, be made as premise or conclusion. Whenever absent or insufficiently explicit the social contract, the greater the chance that conflict will become violent, reason be replaced by emotion. And if and when absolutism enters the picture, all bets are off.

Such a social contract must be more or less explicit and shared, as could be the case under restricted conditions (in a debate class, eg) or under certain historical contexts, say, among early proponents of democratic revolution, if the goal is to reduce conflict to amenable, non-violent resolution through shaping the sociopolitical field of play. Except in time of actual revolution, then, in order for society to normally proceed rationally and, more often than not, peacefully -- self-interest and rationalization as human constants notwithstanding -- reasonableness must prevail over raw interest or emotional gravitas.

As for ISF discussion, the board is nominally supportive of atheism, skepticism and skeptical method, and such perspectives are thusly preferably brought to bear whenever applicable, and are fair to expect of others as well, given the context. Which brings me to my reason for posting: it is my view that a skeptic cannot claim any but two sources of authoritative postulates, the first being factual observation in all things amenable to natural science, the other being a socially-agreed first principle that underlies formal argument relating to social behavior and policy. Note that in both cases, the final arbiter of whether an observation is veridical, or a given first principle should serve as the operative start for reasoning, is consensus (never an absolute). In science, we rely on peer review. In all else, reasoning must proceed logically from agreed principle if the goal is to achieve predicable results (within the constraints of probabilistic systems), the qualities thereof depending on the chosen first principle and the quality of logical reasoning. The alternative, of course, being that of proceeding from no identifiable or justifiable principle, rather, of making a declarative statement, or simply proceeding from some arbitrary point which can be retrofitted as purported rationale for what otherwise amounts to personal preference/sectarian creed.

This latter alternative often seems to prevail on ISF as pertains to political discussion. Not altogether to be unexpected, as the primary shared example of a set of shared principles and later political-logical argument therefrom, the US Declaration of Independence and Constitution, happen to yet contain serious flaws in terms of the foregoing. As for this thread, more narrowly my point is that there is nothing inherently wrong about society enforcing its norms, as it must and, in any case, will do, but this also can often involve enforcing the "wrong" ones, wrong being those that are irrational and do not logically derive from any shared and grounding principle under normal circumstances. When there are no shared principles at all, there will be no agreement, and conflict will be the only norm.

Off-Topic:
What mores, implicit or explicit, must've logically been in play for the first agricultural settlements and start of civilization?
Is civilization a prerequisite for a functioning democracy under today's level of advancement?
What observation regarding how life survives and reproduces can be used to inform a desire to foster the prosperity thereof when designing sociopolitical systems?
What, then, is the first principle of democracy?
Can a first principle be systemically or systematically contradicted by the reasoning and norms based upon it while preserving its grounding nature as the broadest statement of the legitimate field of play it shapes?
*I'll skip discussion of bias in justice systems, leaving it to the last question in the Off-Topic section.
 
You present anything that overly complex and detailed to the "Proudly Wrong" and they will do nothing but nitpick and rules lawyer us for eternity.

"Facts exist. When you disagree with facts you are wrong." Don't make it super complicated so there's a bajillion individual points to argue about forever.
 
Yea but they are not going to prison or anything, so they spend a few months in the off season in jail, why should that hurt their career?

Either their crime is of the sort it keeps them out of society, or they should be allowed to ply their trade. Do we really want employers to be the moral or legal touchstones of society?

If they deserve to be punished, then the legal system should be the one to impose it. To continue to punish someone after the legal system has rendered its verdict seems profoundly unjust.
 
Either their crime is of the sort it keeps them out of society, or they should be allowed to ply their trade. Do we really want employers to be the moral or legal touchstones of society?

If they deserve to be punished, then the legal system should be the one to impose it. To continue to punish someone after the legal system has rendered its verdict seems profoundly unjust.

What punishment are we talking about?

Again nobody wanting to deal with you because you are toxic is not a punishment.
 
Either their crime is of the sort it keeps them out of society, or they should be allowed to ply their trade. Do we really want employers to be the moral or legal touchstones of society?

Got it so all those background checks and such should be not at all allowed. As long as they are not presently in prison they are clearly beyond all consequences of their actions.

Just like people would be morally obligated to buy "If I did It" by OJ Simpson.

Was O'Reily losing his job when all his sexual harassment suits had been settled wrong? What is the proper thing to do when a coworker keeps paying out settlements for sexual harassment?
 
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