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Split Thread A second impeachment

So the defense argument to the claim that he committed high crimes and misdemeanors is basically "Nuh uh!! And you can't bar him from office cause he ain't the Pres no more."

One thing that I did not see that I was expecting was an argument that the actions he is alleged to have committed are not high crimes or misdemeanors because they were not dependent on his holding office.

In this context a "high crime" does not mean something like a felony and a "misdemeanor" does not mean what we usually mean when we talk about a crime lower than a felony. A "high crime" means something like a crime committed by virtue of holding a high office. It's something like corruption or abuse of power. It has to be related to the office. For example, they tried to impeach Nixon over unpaid taxes but decided that is a personal matter not a "high crime".

A misdemeanor means something like the original meaning: "mis" meaning bad or wrong and "demeanor" meaning outward behavior. But that doesn't mean bad personal behavior or conduct unbecoming a President. It means something more like "maladministration" which was a term that had previously been considered to be used but was rejected because that term could be construed to mean that Congress simply doesn't like the way a President is administer the office. Misdemeanors here means wrong or improper actions in carrying out the duty of the office. People have been impeached for things like drunkenness, but only because that affects their abilities to carry out their duties.

Of course the phrase "high crimes and misdemeanors" doesn't really exactly mean what it's constituent parts mean. The phrase at the time was a term of art that had come to have its own particular meaning that isn't precisely articulated.

It could be argued that the alleged actions by Trump are not high crimes or misdemeanors because they are not dependent on his holding office. For example, imagine if he had lost the election in 2016 and did the same thing he did this year resulting in a mob storming the Capitol. He could not have been impeached and barred from running in 2020 because he wasn't President or Vice President or holding any other federal office. Why would the action of a person not subject to being barred from holding office be able to be barred for exactly the same actions simply because they happened to be in office at the time?

For a "jury" of Senators who are mostly lawyers, that argument may have some resonance. But it might be risky because the House "prosecution" would jump on the fact that this was a betrayal to the country and Constitution, which would be a violation of the oath of office, which would certainly seem fall within "high crimes and misdemeanors".

But it does seem like an argument that should be considered, especially considering that removal from office is not an option and this is only about barring from holding future office, which means that Congress would be potentially overriding the free will of the people to reelect him, if they should choose, knowing his past actions.

I think it is insanely weak. Trump committed the offense at the White House during his term of office. It was a act against democracy and the Constitution by the Chief Executive that swore to preserve, defend and protect our nation and our Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic.

To suggest that the nation and Congress cannot defend our nation against future insurrections from this man is insane.
 
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I would think that using the power of the office of POTUS to try to intimidate the state of Georgia into declaring its election results invalid is the very quintessence of 'high crimes and misdemeanours.'

Dave
 
I would think that using the power of the office of POTUS to try to intimidate the state of Georgia into declaring its election results invalid is the very quintessence of 'high crimes and misdemeanours.'

Dave

OTOH the Republican Party see it as a perfectly reasonable tactic to try and rectify the result of the election which was stolen from them.

The mainstream narrative within the party is still that there was industrial-scale voter fraud and that President Trump really won the election.
 
I remember some years ago submitting a 30+page report in my role as communications coordinator for a US-South Asia Agricultural Biotechnology Support project with Cornell University's School of Agricultural Sciences as the lead technology manager. I immediately got a call from an Indian professor at Cornell who was also part of the team pointing out two spelling errors, actually stemming from inconsistencies in the use of the English and American spelling styles. I sent back a corrected version accompanied with profuse apologies.

I guess my career in publishing has made me acutely sensitive to such things and have always felt that official documents should be error-free. In fact, people insist on it as the general notion is that if you are not going to take care to ensure your document is error free, why should we take it seriously?

One good thing though, the Head of International Projects at the School sent me nice letter stating how he was impressed with the document and should not take the criticism to heart since those levying it in the first place could barely manage a single language, let alone the four I was working with. Later he recommended that I draft the opening address for the President of India for a major international event by the Borlaug Global Rust Initiative.
 
I challenge any T**** supporters here to:

1) Read that paper.

2) Point out any facts not in evidence, therein.

3) Declare if and why you still support the former president.

Personally, I shall that failure to do so as an admittance that you no longer support former president T****

Hans

Trump didn't concede, he never will and there's nothing you can do about it. Get used to it.
 
Lindsey Graham threatens an irrelevant "whatabout" in defense of Trump (Newsweek via MSN)-

Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC) suggested the focus could be shifted to Vice President Kamala Harris at Donald Trump's upcoming impeachment trial if it is drawn out, telling Democratic lawmakers: "Be careful what you wish for."
...
"
If you're going to pursue this, and you wanna start calling witnesses, and you want to drag this thing out, it would be fair to have Kamala Harris' tape play where she bailed people out of jail," he said.

"What more could you do to incite future violence, than to pay the bail of the people who broke up the shops and beat up the cops.

"How's that not inciting future violence? Be careful what you wish for my Democratic colleagues, be careful what you wish for."


I guess it should be no surprise that defending a childish moron like Trump requires the GOP to act like children.
 
"If you persist in prosecuting our guy for the illegal thing he did, we're going to whinge about this perfectly legal thing your side did. So there!"

Dave

Graham has got to know that bringing up Harris's supposed "inciting future violence" is no counter to the case for Trump's incitement of a violence that did actually occur, even if you grant the problematical premise that paying for legal bail is inciting violence (which kind of undercuts the whole conceptual basis of bail); I think he's counting on his (and Trump's) core base being the kind of juvenile morons who will crow "haw haw, that's right, Lindsey, you tell 'em!" without considering why it might be wrong.
 
It would seem the Democrats were ready to proceed with the trial while Trump was still President, but McConnell and the Republicans delayed the start of the trial so as to occur once he was out of office. Though this is not strictly a criminal trial, an analogy with criminal procedures might still be worthwhile.

Criminal defendants are entitled to a “speedy trial”, usually requiring a case go to trial within a year. It’s to protect them from the State dragging things out interminably, so it’s well intentioned*. But if at the last minute the defendant themselves needs a continuance it may be granted, but the defendant has to “waive speedy trial”, for obvious reasons.

That seems to be analogous to the case here. The “defense” - in this case the Republican Senate leaders - themselves caused the delay until Trump was out of office, and so should not benefit from that delay. But, shameless as they are, they sure as hell will try.


*I was in court when a vehicular homicide case was dismissed for “speedies”. The State thought they had gotten into court just in time, but had miscalculated by a day due to a leap year being involved. I still recall the look of shock from the victim’s family when the case was dismissed and the defendant walked due to this “technicality”.
 
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