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Split Thread A second impeachment

Again, it's worth noting that it requires a 60% majority of members present at the vote.

If a good number of Republican senators decline to attend the voting session, it may not require any to win the vote. I see that is a distinct possibility.

That would be an excellent way for the cowardly senators to avoid having to go on record and still get rid of Trump. Feign a family emergency, even a positive Covid test and have to go into quarantine, etc., anything to get out of attending and having to vote. If McConnell is smart, and he is, just be sure enough GOP senators are there for a quorum including those who are going to vote to convict, and tell the others to stay out.
 
That would be an excellent way for the cowardly senators to avoid having to go on record and still get rid of Trump. Feign a family emergency, even a positive Covid test and have to go into quarantine, etc., anything to get out of attending and having to vote.


If a significant number of GOP senators were to do that, it would probably be fairly obvious to Trump-supporting Republican voters that the senators were just manufacturing excuses not to vote for acquitting Trump and they'd hold that against those senators when they stood for re-election.

I think there's a better way for Republican senators to skip out on the vote than feigning a family emergency or similar excuse. They could speak out loudly about how disgusted they are with this second impeachment, how they think it's unconstitutional and just a political sham the Democrats are pulling -- and how they refuse to dignify such an unconstitutional sham by taking any part in it. That allows them to skip out on the trial and the vote, without having to vote either to acquit (which would tick off a large number of voters, many of whom would likely remember that vote come re-election time) or to convict (which would tick off a large number of voters, many of whom would likely remember that vote come re-election time). And it allows them to do it in a way which they can make sound like they're taking a strong and courageous stand against the outrageous partisan shenanigans the Democrats are pulling.

If 10 of them join together to boycott the impeachment trial that way, the number needed to convict drops down to 60, so Democrats would only need to convince 10 GOP senators to vote for conviction. And if 13 were to take part in such a boycott and 3 more felt they had to quarantine, the number of votes needed to convict drops to 56, so only 6 GOP votes for conviction would be needed...

Neither the constitution nor the senate rules on impeachment require all 100 senators to take part in the trial. It's possible for senate leadership to choose to insist that all senators be present, and to send the sergeant-at-arms to round up and bring in anyone who isn't present, but the senate leadership isn't required to do that. This is an instance where Mitch McConnell and Chuck Schumer might both feel it was more important to respect the choices of senators who felt compelled by their consciences to boycott the proceedings than to order them to show up or to penalize them for their absence.

Republican love to avoid having to vote on the record on controversial matters, and Mitch McConnell during his time as majority leader loved to find ways to allow GOP senators to avoid having to vote on the record. These past 2 years, for example, McConnell repeatedly refused to bring up for a vote (or even for senate consideration) numerous important pieces of legislation passed by the house (such as the HEROES act passed by the house way back in May), sparing Republican senators the difficult choice of voting for a popular measure championed by Democrats (thus giving Democrats in congress a victory which could have earned them more votes in the 2020 elections) or voting against a popular measure championed by Democrats (thus giving Democrats a strong weapon to use against them come election time). Boycotting the impeachment on the grounds it's an unconstitutional sham would once again allow them to avoid having to vote on the record, so it's something McConnell would quite likely be happy to support and something a good number of GOP senators would quite likely be happy to take part in.
 
Again, it's worth noting that it requires a 60% majority of members present at the vote.


Not sure if that's a typo on your part or an actual misunderstanding of what the constitution (and senate rules) say, but I think it's important to note that the requirement for conviction is a 2/3 majority. That's larger than 60%, which is only 3/5.

(But the key point you were making, that this majority is of members present rather than total senate membership, is correct and is an important distinction to make so thank you for making it.)
 
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If a significant number of GOP senators were to do that, it would probably be fairly obvious to Trump-supporting Republican voters that the senators were just manufacturing excuses not to vote for acquitting Trump and they'd hold that against those senators when they stood for re-election.

snip.........

Boycotting the impeachment on the grounds it's an unconstitutional sham would once again allow them to avoid having to vote on the record, so it's something McConnell would quite likely be happy to support and something a good number of GOP senators would quite likely be happy to take part in.

Excellent idea! They get to do their "I'm shocked and outraged!" spiel and still get rid of the SOB. A win-win.
 
I like that the trial is being moved to next month. This gives more time for stories like the NY Times article about what was going on in the Justice Department to come out. The more we know about the attack, the worse it is for Trump.
 

see post http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13366756&postcount=1063


(Joe)Random but entirely characteristic to the profile of the people commenting in this forum (at least this thread). Given that other rational people think basically the same on this subject it's quite a claim to choose derision as your main argument (I disagree with the guy in many others aspects of course, regarding Brexit or the tactics to be used to tackle pandemics among them) .

For years I pointed out that the 'progressive' conquest of Western Academia and of the education system (sometimes well before 2000, like in History for example) led to a massive revisionism to the point that today the Western civilization is presented mainly as a never-ending series of crimes and injustice (in reality the advent of Modernity has never been a 'multicultural venture' but one due [mainly] to the Europeans, the West; the old, so called 'colonialist', scholarship was much more rational in fact, finally any attempts to create a better world should start from the truth and not from the necessity to appease the protected minorities, real justice cannot be attained via supressing the truth on the ground that reactionary forces may use it to further their nefarious goals; this is no joke, it's how 'progressivsm' works today unfortunately, look for example at IQ studies).

Free speech has also been basically thrashed to the bin, or in the words of John O'Sullivan : "In short, a public culture that used to be liberal is now “progressive”—which is something like liberalism minus its commitment to freedom." . There is definitely a strong link between the 'progressivism' of today and the theme discussed here (but as I pointed in other threads on this site there was also an older version of progressivism before 1990, universalist in nature, much more rational, I like to think I am such a centre left progressive, to make things easier for those who accuse me of alt-Right). Finally Biden and the Democrats seem to have completely surrendered to the requirements of today's 'progressivism' I'm afraid, I don't think this is the best way ahead. If you are not capable to 'bridge the gaps' to make sense of what I say what can I do? I don't have time to write whole books for you and others like you.
 
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If I were a senator (a democratic one) I wouldn't vote to convict Trump. It is hard to take the house seriously when they do not take the process seriously. They haven't interviewed witnesses. They didn't subpoena any records or communications. For something so important thet have put very little effort into it.

It's not a criminal court. There is no reason to interview the insurrectionists.

The purpose is to remove a leader from politics who cannot put the country's interests first, placing bystanders and senate leaders at risk due to his own ego and vanity.
 
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There is no reason to interview the insurrectionists.

I disagree.

One of the major issues is did the President’s words incite people to riot. We already have some of the rioters saying they were in fact incited by his words. Saying they took his words as an order to go to Washington and fight. These were, for the most part, reasonably intelligent people, so the way they interpreted the President’s words is important.
 
I disagree.

One of the major issues is did the President’s words incite people to riot. We already have some of the rioters saying they were in fact incited by his words. Saying they took his words as an order to go to Washington and fight. These were, for the most part, reasonably intelligent people, so the way they interpreted the President’s words is important.

It won't change the vote of any Republican senators. Sure, it will make them look more ridiculous. It may even change some people's minds aboutvtheir senator. But no effect in 2022 or 2024 election. People don't remember that far.

If there were interviews, it would not change my vote, in those elections. So waste of my time as well. I'm not even sure this will help Biden.
 
Again, it's worth noting that it requires a 60% majority of members present at the vote.

If a good number of Republican senators decline to attend the voting session, it may not require any to win the vote. I see that is a distinct possibility.

I would think that, if anything, the few Republicans who are against Trump in this are at least as likely to skip out. Voting for removal and/or ban from office is sort of a no win for them politically.
 
I would think that, if anything, the few Republicans who are against Trump in this are at least as likely to skip out. Voting for removal and/or ban from office is sort of a no win for them politically.

I'm not sure I agree with that thought, and I'll be interested to see, because I think the Republicans will stomp him out of existence, barring the few obvious supporters he has in Congress.

McConnell couldn't have been any clearer: "The crowd was provoked by the President and others."

The other side is Trump's toxicity to everyone who isn't a three-toothed meth addict. He has no money, no allies (worth a damn) and has had to resort to backwoods lawyer to represent him in the Senate. He's done and I think the GOP will come to the conclusion very quickly that there's far more damage in not convicting him.
 
I would think that, if anything, the few Republicans who are against Trump in this are at least as likely to skip out. Voting for removal and/or ban from office is sort of a no win for them politically.
What they can win, politically, is domination of the Republican Party. If they don't have that then the party remains shackled to a corpse, because Trump is a spent force.
 
What they can win, politically, is domination of the Republican Party. If they don't have that then the party remains shackled to a corpse, because Trump is a spent force.
I would agree on the idea, but wouldn't be surprised if the people actually in office don't. A significant number of people people seem unable to imagine a future that isn't just more of today. No doubt some thoughtful Republicans, looking beyond their own tenure, will figure it out, but they had already likely jumped off the T**** bandwagon. I won't be much surprised if the rest die in the bunker.

It is, after all, just another version, in parvo, of what is happening with regard to other issues like global warming.
 
I was quoting something I read in the GUARDIAN. Is it not so, then, that 17 Republican votes would be needed to get the 2/3 majority to convict?
No it's not. The super-majority is two-thirds of the voting senators. Senators are not required to vote.
 
Apparently the BS maneuvering won't stop anytime soon.

Trump Saying Third-Party Threat Will Leverage GOP Senators into Acquitting Him in Impeachment Trial: Report [lawandcrime.com]
Multiple people in Trump’s orbit, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss private conversations, say Trump has told people that the third-party threat gives him leverage to prevent Republican senators from voting to convict him during the Senate impeachment trial. Trump advisers also say they plan to recruit opposing primary candidates and commission polling next week in districts of targeted lawmakers. Trump has more than $70 million in campaign cash banked to fund his political efforts, these people say.

Looks like wishful thinking to me.
 
Free speech has also been basically thrashed to the bin, or in the words of John O'Sullivan : "In short, a public culture that used to be liberal is now “progressive”—which is something like liberalism minus its commitment to freedom." .

Just to poke at this... I have to wonder something very simple. Are you both conflating liberalism with libertarianism?
 
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No it's not. The super-majority is two-thirds of the voting senators. Senators are not required to vote.

This is kind of true and kind of not true. One has to have a legitimate reason not to vote such as a conflict of interest. But the rule is not necessarily enforced.
 

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