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We don’t even have a signature match in the UK. You get sent your ballot card to your address and on polling day turn up, hand over the card, they cross your name off a list and give you a voting slip (which is not tied to your identity in any way). No check that you are the person named on the card. No need to provide ID. You put a cross next to your candidate of choice and put it in a box.

Far less checks than you have in the US and no-one shouts about voter fraud here.

I’ve never voted by mail but again I think that just gets sent to your address and you tick (cross) the box and put it back in the post.

Not surprisingly "In the United Kingdom a 2016 government inquiry found that postal voting "was considered by some to be the UK’s main electoral vulnerability and to provide the 'best' opportunity for electoral fraud..." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absentee_voting_in_the_United_Kingdom)
 
you do realize that offering mail-in voting doesn't mean you eliminate in-person voting.

right?

right?!???

Right. In that case the risk is smaller. But you do realize that switching to mail voting alone increases the risk of cheating, right?
Such as Colorado, Hawaii, Oregon, Utah and Washington which hold elections almost entirely by mail, with Hawaii and Utah adopting full vote-by-mail elections in 2020. (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_voting_in_the_2020_United_States_elections)
 
Right. In that case the risk is smaller. But you do realize that switching to mail voting alone increases the risk of cheating, right?
Such as Colorado, Hawaii, Oregon, Utah and Washington which hold elections almost entirely by mail, with Hawaii and Utah adopting full vote-by-mail elections in 2020. (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_voting_in_the_2020_United_States_elections)

I don't think you have evidence of that.
What mail-in voting increases is the number of votes rejected, precisely because poll workers check more carefully than they do with walk-ins.

Unless, of course, you mean cheating by the partisan Election Commission finding reasons to disqualify votes from certain places ...
 
Have a look at my previous posts, see how for example Avi Rubin (an expert in the field) decried the switch to mail only voting, because it is less secure. If you look anywhere and read about voting systems´ security you´ll see that there is nothing safer than presential paper voting and counting.
 
No election system is going to be flawless.
Expediency must be a consideration, too, not just accuracy and legitimacy.


If mail-in voting makes it possible for an additional 10% of voters to cast their vote, but increases the risk of fraud by 0.1%, that should be a trade-off worth considering.

I'm all for making mail-in voting saver.
I'm all for making it automatic to have a second vote in cases where the election is tight and relevant levels of irregularities might have occurred: sometimes, it's too close to tell no matter how many recounts you do.
 
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Let me see... ahhh, misrepresentation, misleading claims, lying with statistics, cherrypicked experts...

Standard stuff from usual suspects, really.

But all this does not negate that the system is crap. And noticing the reticence to address the problem, democracy is in peril indeed.
For certain folks solution is somehow always change voting in way that completely accidentally harms democrats. :rolleyes: No one here will fall for your crap.
 
I miss the days when you could at least count on insane trolls to come up with their own nonsense.

This is like the prepackaged Hot Topic version of it.
 
Let me see... ahhh, misrepresentation, misleading claims, lying with statistics, cherrypicked experts...

Standard stuff from usual suspects, really.


For certain folks solution is somehow always change voting in way that completely accidentally harms democrats. :rolleyes: No one here will fall for your crap.
My solution would be to make a more tamper proof system Are you saying that it would hurt democrats? Are you claiming that democrats cheat?

I see you haven't bothered to read any of the sources I posted, so I won't bother any more with you.
 
My solution would be to make a more tamper proof system Are you saying that it would hurt democrats? Are you claiming that democrats cheat?

I see you haven't bothered to read any of the sources I posted, so I won't bother any more with you.

Most "more tamperproof" systems proposed, such as increased use of voter ID or reduced polling locations or reduced polling hours or reduced ballot drop off locations, tend to disadvantage the poor and minorities. See: All the literature.

If one were to make a "more tamperproof" system that did not disadvantage the poor or minorities, that would likely be welcome by most people. That is just never what is actually proposed or implemented.

For example: When voter ID laws are passed they are never coupled with any effort to make it easier for voters who do not currently meet those requirements to meet them. They dismiss it as a "small number" even though it is many orders of magnitude larger than any recorded voter fraud.

So, those who worry about disenfranchising the poor or minorities get a bit tired of hearing about how the fact that there were ten fraudulent votes is an excuse to exclude thousands of poor and minority voters from the system.

You are receiving the brunt of years of bad faith arguments from those who say they want more secure elections, but in fact just want to make it harder for the poor and minorities to vote. That you are using the same data and arguments makes it look even worse.
 
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My solution would be to make a more tamper proof system Are you saying that it would hurt democrats? Are you claiming that democrats cheat?

Yes. Because with the Right "Tamper Proof" always means "Keep black people from voting."

I see you haven't bothered to read any of the sources I posted, so I won't bother any more with you.

Do whatever you want. It won't keep the sane people from pointing out every lie you make. You don't have to listen.
 
My solution would be to make a more tamper proof system Are you saying that it would hurt democrats? Are you claiming that democrats cheat?

I see you haven't bothered to read any of the sources I posted, so I won't bother any more with you.
I, at least, have no issue with the idea that a more tamper-proof system would be a good idea. My issue is with the contention of some that the current system has led to some problem that justifies the wave of insurrectionist anger we now see, or that requires diversion of attention from the problems and expenses we now face.

Improvement is good, and many things could use improvement. There is, in this as in any issue, a question of cost versus benefit. We can go on and on forever discussing how disorganized and potentially flawed the current system is, but if it works well enough on the whole it's well down the list of things we need to do something about.

If the system is broken, it's been broken for a long time and it seems just a little suspicious that it becomes a front-burner issue only when the worst, stupidest, and most corrupt president in history has lost, and his followers, in response to his insane lies, have attempted to overthrow the government. There's a thin line here between addressing a problem and pandering.

We've managed, it seems, to survive a period in which important policy was based on slim presumptions and outright lies, and even if the potential flaws of the voting system are not actual lies, the presumption that it failed is, and (whether or not any posters here are in the group) it seems that the same people who fomented that lie and justified its disastrous results are trying to convince us that we need to give priority to assuaging the injured faith of the disappointed. If we want to deprive the enemies of democracy of their power, we might have to stop empowering them.
 
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I, at least, have no issue with the idea that a more tamper-proof system would be a good idea. My issue is with the contention of some that the current system has led to some problem that justifies the wave of insurrectionist anger we now see, or that requires diversion of attention from the problems and expenses we now face.

Improvement is good, and many things could use improvement. There is, in this as in any issue, a question of cost versus benefit. We can go on and on forever discussing how disorganized and potentially flawed the current system is, but if it works well enough on the whole it's well down the list of things we need to do something about.

If the system is broken, it's been broken for a long time and it seems just a little suspicious that it becomes a front-burner issue only when the worst, stupidest, and most corrupt president in history has lost, and his followers, in response to his insane lies, have attempted to overthrow the government. There's a thin line here between addressing a problem and pandering.

We've managed, it seems, to survive a period in which important policy was based on slim presumptions and outright lies, and even if the potential flaws of the voting system are not actual lies, the presumption that it failed is, and (whether or not any posters here are in the group) it seems that the same people who fomented that lie and justified its disastrous results are trying to convince us that we need to give priority to assuaging the injured faith of the disappointed. If we want to deprive the enemies of democracy of their power, we might have to stop empowering them.

I personally haven't taken Trump's claims seriously, he was obviously lying and obfuscating. I'm not trying to vindicate his claims, quite the opposite. My point is just that the imperfectly designed and insufficiently transparent voting system has helped boost the claims of fraud. And if it doesn't get corrected it could happen again. Do you want that in the next election? Wouldn't it be better to have a simpler, safer, transparent voting system that precluded any serious claims of fraud?
 
Most "more tamperproof" systems proposed, such as increased use of voter ID or reduced polling locations or reduced polling hours or reduced ballot drop off locations, tend to disadvantage the poor and minorities. See: All the literature.

If one were to make a "more tamperproof" system that did not disadvantage the poor or minorities, that would likely be welcome by most people. That is just never what is actually proposed or implemented.

For example: When voter ID laws are passed they are never coupled with any effort to make it easier for voters who do not currently meet those requirements to meet them. They dismiss it as a "small number" even though it is many orders of magnitude larger than any recorded voter fraud.

So, those who worry about disenfranchising the poor or minorities get a bit tired of hearing about how the fact that there were ten fraudulent votes is an excuse to exclude thousands of poor and minority voters from the system.

You are receiving the brunt of years of bad faith arguments from those who say they want more secure elections, but in fact just want to make it harder for the poor and minorities to vote. That you are using the same data and arguments makes it look even worse.

I don't know what the design of safer e-voting machines or mail voting systems have to do with disadvantaging minorities... You are seeing ghosts.
 
I personally haven't taken Trump's claims seriously, he was obviously lying and obfuscating. I'm not trying to vindicate his claims, quite the opposite. My point is just that the imperfectly designed and insufficiently transparent voting system has helped boost the claims of fraud. And if it doesn't get corrected it could happen again. Do you want that in the next election? Wouldn't it be better to have a simpler, safer, transparent voting system that precluded any serious claims of fraud?

*Very slowly*

What... problems... do... we... need... to... fix?

"Well I've imagined a way someone might cheat the system" isn't a problem that needs to be fixed.

I get it. You want to make claims but have zero evidence so you're dancing on the "Oh I'm just asking questions" like all Conspiracy Theorists/Woo Slingers.

The way the Right is cheating the system, which are happening in the real world, needs to be fixed. Insane fever dreams about hypothetical things the Left could be doing do not.
 
The claims of voter fraud came from people being highly motivated to find voter fraud who were at the same time incredibly ignorant about how voting works in their State.

Before we change a system that seemed to have worked as intended, why don't we spend some time making sure Voters know how it works before they vote?
 
My point is just that the imperfectly designed and insufficiently transparent voting system has helped boost the claims of fraud.

I would take issue with the "insufficiently transparent" aspect of that claim. I don't live in the US and have never voted in a US election, yet I've found it quite simple to find out as much detail as I wanted about the system and how it operates. The people swallowing the claim of fraud do so, not because the system is "insufficiently transparent," but because they lack either the motivation or the critical thinking skills to find out for themselves how the system works and assess the fraud claims against reality. That isn't a fault with the voting system. It's a fault with the mentality of a large part of the population.

As for "imperfectly designed," please submit a list of known voting systems that are perfectly designed. In fact, a list of anything that's perfectly designed would be nice.

And if it doesn't get corrected it could happen again. Do you want that in the next election? Wouldn't it be better to have a simpler, safer, transparent voting system that precluded any serious claims of fraud?

There is no possible system that would preclude claims of fraud by people sufficiently dishonest to fabricate them, nor that would preclude the acceptance of those claims by people with sufficiently poor critical thinking abilities who cannot accept that democracy requires that some people will not have their preferred candidate elected. And, as Dr. Keith points out above, there are costs as well as benefits to a more tamper-proof system; if one of those costs is voter suppression, then overall democracy is impaired rather than assisted by the change.

And, yes, such a change would hurt Democrats, even if - in fact, especially if - Democrats do not cheat.

Dave
 
Yes. Because with the Right "Tamper Proof" always means "Keep black people from voting."
I live in the South as I see you live in Florida. My hometown is 50% Black and 50% White, I have not heard one Black say there was any difficulty in either registering or voting.
 
I, at least, have no issue with the idea that a more tamper-proof system would be a good idea. My issue is with the contention of some that the current system has led to some problem that justifies the wave of insurrectionist anger we now see, or that requires diversion of attention from the problems and expenses we now face.

Improvement is good, and many things could use improvement. There is, in this as in any issue, a question of cost versus benefit. We can go on and on forever discussing how disorganized and potentially flawed the current system is, but if it works well enough on the whole it's well down the list of things we need to do something about.

If the system is broken, it's been broken for a long time and it seems just a little suspicious that it becomes a front-burner issue only when the worst, stupidest, and most corrupt president in history has lost, and his followers, in response to his insane lies, have attempted to overthrow the government. There's a thin line here between addressing a problem and pandering.

We've managed, it seems, to survive a period in which important policy was based on slim presumptions and outright lies, and even if the potential flaws of the voting system are not actual lies, the presumption that it failed is, and (whether or not any posters here are in the group) it seems that the same people who fomented that lie and justified its disastrous results are trying to convince us that we need to give priority to assuaging the injured faith of the disappointed. If we want to deprive the enemies of democracy of their power, we might have to stop empowering them.
This is not the first time flaws in the voting process has been a topic of discussion amongst those who might care about such things.

Dead voters, hanging chads, Diebold machines, Russian interference, and most recently Mail in voting, have been topics throughout many elections- and have called into question the legitimacy of the wins of candidates on both sides of the aisle- over a span of decades.

The biggest impediment to setting up something fair and secure has been the short attention span of the populace- we only think about these things right after the election, and right after an election the newly elected react the most defensively regarding the election process-for fear their wins will seem illegitimate. So they stick their fingers in their ears and scream "la la la I can't hear you" when the topic is being discussed, long enough for the next event that captures the publics' attention to occur.

Now would be an ideal time for the Democrats to take the initiative on establishing some safe, fair, secure, accessible, and uniform voting process for the Nation. Instead, it seems, they must insist the system is perfect, and that any calls to address the obvious problems with it is just an attempt to discredit their win.

A month ago I would have been shocked had someone said that getting into the Capitol while congress was in session required little more than breaking a window and walking down a hallway, now I know that the building was not quite as secure as I had assumed it was. Do we wish to wait until a foreign power actually changes the results of our election to make the election process more secure?

Biden could address a real problem, whilst simultaneously demonstrating confidence in the legitimacy of his own win, and a willingness to reach out to the loonies who need to be brought back to a level of reasonableness, by making "election reform" a centerpiece of his admin.
 
And you still wonder why Trump´s claims of election fraud seemed believable for many? IMO he lacked credibility because he had four years as president to tackle this problem and did nothing, then spread baseless claims right before the election, and also, when he started claiming that he won "by a landslide" and that he got "75% of the votes", anyone with a sane mind should have noticed that he was blatantly lying.

But all this does not negate that the system is crap. And noticing the reticence to address the problem, democracy is in peril indeed.

The claims of election fraud are believable to so many because they’ve been fed a steady diet of lies, propaganda, and conspiracy theories by Trump and the Republican Party. Full stop.

Regarding all the information you’ve posted, I regret to inform you that pointing out potential risks isn’t particularly compelling. Every time I drive my car, there’s a potential risk that I could be rocketed through the windshield at 60 miles per hour. But in actuality, I drove to the store yesterday and then safely returned home.

Do you have any evidence of actual problems that actually impacted the results in a significant way? Any evidence of verified security issues that actually impacted the election?

The 2020 election was probably the most scrutinized election in U.S. history.

It shouldn’t be difficult to come up with examples, if any exist.
 

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