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Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

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JoeMorgue said:
I swear to God if one more person uses "Well what does it matter?" in this argument I'm gonna self-identity as someone who is screaming.

None of this matters. Which no "side" gets to default to "It doesn't matter, therefore I should be the one who arbitrarily gets their way."

White only spaces where also set up for their safety and privacy and yes I will keep making that comparison.
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Yes yes, we know, females have been historically so very oppressive and discriminatory toward you poor, downtrodden males. We get it. Females are the new "evil white man".

**** me sideways with a pitchfork already.
 
angrysoba said:
If you are going to make this argument are you also saying that women’s sports are comparable to the baseball Negro Leagues?
?
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His analogy would be more like MEN'S sports are comparable to the baseball Negro Leagues. It's the evil oppressive females who are keeping out the downtrodden males in his metaphor.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Amend Rolfe's view to "as a right". That's a key point that keeps getting swept aside. If I understand her view on this, she doesn't want any males at all to have a RIGHT to female spaces. Some males may have the PRIVILEGE granted to them in some cases. But not as a RIGHT.
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Not even as a privilege in any official recognised sense. (Except, see the ETA below. A privilege in that sense seemed to work in the past.)

If no woman actually realises that the person touching up "her" makeup in the ladies room is actually a man, either from his appearance or his behaviour, then there simply isn't an issue. But we need the right to be able to challenge any male detected in the ladies room, and "oh but I'm trans I'm allowed to be here" is no defence if detected.

ETA: A transwoman friend of mine explained the system she experienced when she transitioned several decades ago. There was a lot of psychotherapy, partly to support the patient and ensure the best possible chance of good mental health after transition, but also to make sure the person transitioning wasn't likely to pose a danger to women. She says that psychotherapy is the reason she was able to adapt and live in her chosen role without mental health problems.

Absolutely no going into the ladies' room until after surgery. Once surgery was completed this was allowed, but with careful training on how not to draw attention to herself. The rule was that if you perceive you're making a woman feel uncomfortable, back off and exit the room as quickly and unobtrusively as possible. If someone calls the attendant or security, then produce The Letter. This letter was an explanation from the gender reassignment consultant that the bearer had undergone a full process of transition. The letter could and would be withdrawn if the patient was found to have been misbehaving and harrassing women.

Now, cue all the outraged whining that this is intolerable and the marginalised trans darlings of today won't put up with it. Well my friend and her partner both put up with it, thought it was a fair deal to get what they wanted, and never caused or experienced any trouble.
 
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Rolfe said:
ETA: A transwoman friend of mine explained the system she experienced when she transitioned several decades ago. There was a lot of psychotherapy, partly to support the patient and ensure the best possible chance of good mental health after transition, but also to make sure the person transitioning wasn't likely to pose a danger to women. She says that psychotherapy is the reason she was able to adapt and live in her chosen role without mental health problems.

Absolutely no going into the ladies' room until after surgery. Once surgery was completed this was allowed, but with careful training on how not to draw attention to herself. The rule was that if you perceive you're making a woman feel uncomfortable, back off and exit the room as quickly and unobtrusively as possible. If someone calls the attendant or security, then produce The Letter. This letter was an explanation from the gender reassignment consultant that the bearer had undergone a full process of transition. The letter could and would be withdrawn if the patient was found to have been misbehaving and harrassing women.
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That's the kind of thing I would have in mind. I might alter a little bit here and there, but the basic principles are there.

No, "I'm a woman because I say I am" stuff. Medical treatment, doctor's letters, subject to review if you step out of line. That sort of thing.
 
Yes. I wasn't aware of all that back in the day, but I'd have been quite comfortable with it if I had known. But the absolute essence of what is happening now is a rebellion against that previous system. It's oppressive and there must be no gatekeeping whatsoever. That's the current aim.
 
Well now here's an interesting case:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mosier

Unless I missed something, what we have here is a biological female winning national competitions in the men's category.

I would have said that's impossible, so, something interesting is going on here. I don't have time to look it up right now, so i thought I would just drop it and see what comes up. I'll probably do a bit more research and see if I can find out more this evening.

ETA: Link to the news story that brought my attention to him.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/chris-mosier-transgender-olympic-athlete-team-usa-sharing-story/
 
Meadmaker said:
Well now here's an interesting case:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mosier

Unless I missed something, what we have here is a biological female winning national competitions in the men's category.

I would have said that's impossible, so, something interesting is going on here. I don't have time to look it up right now, so i thought I would just drop it and see what comes up. I'll probably do a bit more research and see if I can find out more this evening.

ETA: Link to the news story that brought my attention to him.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/chris-mosier-transgender-olympic-athlete-team-usa-sharing-story/
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Good on him, but I couldn’t see anything on his Wikipedia page or the article about winning anything in the men’s category. Also, it looks like most of his competing and representative honours is in the biathlon, a distant, poor cousin of the triathlon.

Leaving all that aside, I can see a transman competing well (but not winning often) in endurance sports like these. I don’t see any chance in more explosive or strength sports.
 
lionking said:
Good on him, but I couldn’t see anything on his Wikipedia page or the article about winning anything in the men’s category. Also, it looks like most of his competing and representative honours is in the biathlon, a distant, poor cousin of the triathlon.

Leaving all that aside, I can see a transman competing well (but not winning often) in endurance sports like these. I don’t see any chance in more explosive or strength sports.
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Females can win over males in endurance...like ultra long swimming and mega marathons. Women have held the records for the swim to Catalina for example (26 miles) over males competitors. (Though males are still way more likely to win...females at least have done it in these sports)

There is something about females than can pace out energy over the verrry long haul. So if he still has that plus testosterone he uses, it is perhaps a good blend of traits.
 
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lionking said:
Good on him, but I couldn’t see anything on his Wikipedia page or the article about winning anything in the men’s category. Also, it looks like most of his competing and representative honours is in the biathlon, a distant, poor cousin of the triathlon.

Leaving all that aside, I can see a transman competing well (but not winning often) in endurance sports like these. I don’t see any chance in more explosive or strength sports.
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I wonder if I was misinterpreting the phrase "Member of Team USA".

I took it to mean qualifying for the Olympics, but it might not actually mean that.
 
Meadmaker said:
Well now here's an interesting case:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mosier

Unless I missed something, what we have here is a biological female winning national competitions in the men's category.

I would have said that's impossible, so, something interesting is going on here. I don't have time to look it up right now, so i thought I would just drop it and see what comes up. I'll probably do a bit more research and see if I can find out more this evening.

ETA: Link to the news story that brought my attention to him.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/chris-mosier-transgender-olympic-athlete-team-usa-sharing-story/
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What this really signifies is that not all sports are the same. which is why criteria should be left to the governing bodies of the particular sport/league.

When it comes to things like robotics teams, I interpret the intent of girls teams and events not as existing for fairness, but to encourage girls into STEM fields where they are under-represented. I have no problem with that. Neither do I have a problem with events encouraging boys to pursue careers as teachers, nurses or office staff. (Or to encourage girls to pursue construction trades and the like.)

Note: The example of robotics wasn't actually brought up as a participation issue, as I recall. It had to do with how do you handle overnight trips with a trans-girl participant. Her participation was not the issue. Just a real world: "How do I handle this?"

When it comes to scholarships, again, I leave the eligibility criteria to the organization providing the scholarship, assuming it's private. These organizations are not obligated to provide scholarships and no one has a particular right to be considered for them. They can make their own rules.

Public non-athletic scholarships, however, are different. But I'm not sure how many government sponsored scholarships are sex/gender specific anyway.
 
Sherkeu said:
Females can win over males in endurance...like ultra long swimming and mega marathons. Women have held the records for the swim to Catalina for example (26 miles) over males competitors. (Though males are still way more likely to win...females at least have done it in these sports)

There is something about females than can pace out energy over the verrry long haul. So if he still has that plus testosterone he uses, it is perhaps a good blend of traits.
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I don’t like ultra swimming records though. Far too many variables like tides, winds and even the drag of the cage. But agree with your general point.
 
Eddie Izzard and the denigration of women

Failing to defend truth and reason will lead to the denigration of what it means to be a woman. I think the reason it is acceptable for men to say they are women, where it wouldn’t be acceptable for a white person to claim to be a black person, is because womanhood has been robbed of all meaning by the more extreme elements in the genderfluidity movement.

It’s sometimes difficult even to say the word ‘woman’ these days. They’re referred to as ‘people who bleed’, ‘birthing people’, ‘womxn’, because apparently using the w-word is offensive to genderfluidity activists. It is this relentless denigration of what it means to be a woman, the transformation of womanhood into mere garb one can put on whenever one chooses, that means even people who are very clearly men can now demand: ‘Call me 'she'.’

Eddie Izzard, like everyone else, deserves to have a happy, fulfilled life. But his needs do not and must not overrule the right of everyone else to talk about the real world as it exists. Someone needs to tell Eddie that womanhood is not a ‘mode’ — it’s a real thing, and it deserves some respect.
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Emily's Cat said:
Ahhh... priorities.

New House rules to eliminate gender-specific terms such as 'father, mother, son, daughter'

Because there's not a pandemic, ongoing civil unrest, economic strife... nope. This is what's really important to our government right now.
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This rule setting procedure, I think, takes place every new congress. It's a set of rules assembled over several months. It's not like it distracts them from doing more important things.

Anyway, I fail to see the relevance to this thread. This seems like something feminist activists would push for as much or more than trans-activists.

A nice side effect is it leads to more economic language: why should legislation refer to "father or mother" when the term "parent" works just as well with fewer words?
 
Meadmaker said:
I wonder if I was misinterpreting the phrase "Member of Team USA".

I took it to mean qualifying for the Olympics, but it might not actually mean that.
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So I followed some footnotes.

It doesn't mean that. It doesn't mean anything close to that.

The first time he qualified for Team USA was in an obscure event, and he qualified in the 35-39 age group. So, in the 35-39 age group, he came in second in sprint duathlon. Since apparently they do hold international competitions for those age groups, he was on Team USA.

I have a bit of experience dealing with obscure sports. I was trying to get into the Olympics myself, as the Irish national Luge team. Long story, but the point is that the best athletes in the world are not 35 years old competing in the Sprint Duathlon.

And the drugs he was taking would have been illegal for a biological male.

My first reaction is that I have no problem with allowing that sort of performance enhancement, and that his athletic accomplishments remain impressive. I would defer to the opinion of experts in the field, but I don't have a problem with him competing in the male events while taking a whole bunch of testesterone. I saw a picture of him with no shirt, and the guy was seriously ripped. Indeed, I would say unnaturally ripped for someone his age, but maybe I don't know what's possible for a 35 year old man.

I know during my Olympic training, I was in the best shape of my life, but nowhere near the kind of shape that guy appears to be in.

I just have to wonder why the news article I read didn't include any reference to age. It seems like that's part of the story. I'll reread it to see if I missed anything.

ETA: Here's a paragraph from the story:

Chris Mosier, a hall-of-fame triathlete, All-American duathlete and six-time member of Team USA, has overcome many challenges — and not just in sports. Mosier is also know as the first transgender man to represent the United States in international competition and is credited with prompting the International Olympic Committee to change its policy on transgender athletes.
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Do you get the feeling from that that he is competing in the 35-30 year old group?
 
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Meadmaker said:
So I followed some footnotes.

It doesn't mean that. It doesn't mean anything close to that.

The first time he qualified for Team USA was in an obscure event, and he qualified in the 35-39 age group. So, in the 35-39 age group, he came in second in sprint duathlon. Since apparently they do hold international competitions for those age groups, he was on Team USA.

I have a bit of experience dealing with obscure sports. I was trying to get into the Olympics myself, as the Irish national Luge team. Long story, but the point is that the best athletes in the world are not 35 years old competing in the Sprint Duathlon.

And the drugs he was taking would have been illegal for a biological male.

My first reaction is that I have no problem with allowing that sort of performance enhancement, and that his athletic accomplishments remain impressive. I would defer to the opinion of experts in the field, but I don't have a problem with him competing in the male events while taking a whole bunch of testesterone. I saw a picture of him with no shirt, and the guy was seriously ripped. Indeed, I would say unnaturally ripped for someone his age, but maybe I don't know what's possible for a 35 year old man.

I know during my Olympic training, I was in the best shape of my life, but nowhere near the kind of shape that guy appears to be in.

I just have to wonder why the news article I read didn't include any reference to age. It seems like that's part of the story. I'll reread it to see if I missed anything.

ETA: Here's a paragraph from the story:



Do you get the feeling from that that he is competing in the 35-30 year old group?
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Good research.

I am actually a multiple gold medallist in the Australian Police Games (a real event back in the day) in a range of distance events (age 35-40 events). I still have the medals to show my grandkids. ;)
 
Meadmaker said:
...snip.. I saw a picture of him with no shirt, and the guy was seriously ripped. Indeed, I would say unnaturally ripped for someone his age, but maybe I don't know what's possible for a 35 year old man.

...snip..
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Take a look at the Hollywood Chris Pack:

Chris Helmsworth
Chris Evans
Chris Pine
Chris Pratt
 
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