d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
I've found that Vox is a fairly decent barometer of wokepinion (TM) but if you're not interested in those folks, well, I cannot blame you.
Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)
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Rolfe
Adult human female
That is not a compromise, that is letting males into women's single-sex spaces. Some males, all males, comes to the same thing. Once any male people have the legal right to enter and occupy women's spaces, in effect they all have, as the narcissists and the entitled and the professionally offended start screaming about discrimination and how it's unconscionable to insist on painful and dangerous surgery to allow men into these spaces - and then it's discriminatory to require a certain form of dress and appearance. And what we have seen is that these demands are capitulated to.
A large part of the issue is the ability of women to police their own safe spaces. If males are not allowed, full stop, then someone who appears to be male can be approached and challenged. If some males are allowed then in practice nobody who appears male can be challenged. It's a sex-pest's wet dream.
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Rolfe
Adult human female
It's cute the way some people seem to think that "trends in public opinion" are fated to continue in one direction.
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
It's cute* how some people make unwarranted assumptions about what other people think.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Some people do think that. Do you dispute this?
Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
You think that nobody believes "trends in public opinion" are fated to continue in one direction? I'm sure somebody does!
Meadmaker
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So we'll put you down as a "hard liner".
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think your position would not be held by very many people.
I also think your argument could be flipped around by the other side...
"If we allow them to force us to produce a 'gender recognition certificate' they won't stop until we are completely forced out of public life, even after going through complete bottom surgery."
I'm sure you are ok with that, but I don't think it's a winning strategy.
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
Which people reading this thread actually think that?
qayak
Penultimate Amazing
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I think Rolfe's position is held by a lot of people, including many women. In fact, I think the position itself is the most reasonable. It only stops things at the point where a more vulnerable group's health and safety become an issue. We know this because no one is arguing that trans men shouldn't be allowed in men's bathrooms or shouldn't be allowed to compete against male athletes.
In my view it is ridiculous to look for a societal compromise. What should be sought is a female consensus on the use of their spaces. If you can't get a near 100% consensus from them, it should never happen.
Meadmaker
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I suppose it depends how near. When it comes to people who have had complete surgery, I think most women would allow access.
It's hard to say because polls aren't exactly accurate, and people being polled don't always understand the questions being asked. Earlier in the thread, some UK survey data showed a majority of women supported transgender access to some women's only spaces, but then the question was asked again while emphasizing that "transgender" could include people with no medical transformation, and then the majority of women were against it.
One thing I absolutely agree with is that the important opinions are the ones whose privacy rights are being compromised. Men should be asked if it is ok to allow biological females into men's spaces. Women should be asked if it is ok to allow biological males into women's spaces. When it comes to women's spaces, I have an opinion on the subject, but my opinion should not matter much on the subject.
That's sort of the paradox though. It's never any of "our business" but we can't either stay neutral or pick aside. Can't win, can't lose, can't break even, can't quit the game as I always call it.
I'd be 100% comfortable looking at both the straight women and the trans-women and going "Well you obviously have something to work out between yourself. Don't bother me until you do" but this discussion shows how much that just isn't a viable option.
It's like both sides still want the people who's "business it is not" to still get behind them.
But the idea that things that are none of my business still very much have to be my concern is a reoccuring problem with progressives.
Meadmaker
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I think a lot of that comes from the fact that even though I think my opinion on the subject doesn't matter, in a democracy I still get to vote on it when it comes to public policy. So, while I think women should have the final say on the subject, legally, they don't. Everyone gets a vote.
In terms of democracy, what I'm saying about my position is that I will cast my vote whatever way I think the people most affected (i.e. women, because I really don't care if there's a woman in the men's room, or if there is a woman competing against me in a race) want me to vote.
Ziggurat
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Except that doesn't actually follow. In any realm in which we don't already draw any distinctions between men and women (which, frankly, is most of public life), there's no reason to think trans people are going to be excluded, and a gender recognition certificate isn't going to be even relevant. It's only ever relevant for those areas where the distinction is drawn.
The slippery slope risk on the trans side is not that they will be forced out of public life completely, because frankly that's just not possible. It's that the requirements needed to get that certificate might be ratcheted up, which could exclude them from some things they would otherwise be entitled to. So I can see why trans activists don't want what they might see as a camel's nose in the tent. But your presentation of that case is still exaggerated.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Women can't tell which men have had the surgery just by looking at them. Allow any men into women's spaces as of right and you allow them all, because it becomes impossible to challenge any of them.
Nobody needs to be forced out of public life. It is not necessary for a male, in order to participate in public life, to have the right to enter female single-sex spaces. I said it before. This is being made out to be women's problem, when it isn't. This is a problem for men to fix. If your trans-identifying brothers don't feel safe beside you in male spaces, or they just don't want to be beside you in male spaces, don't put this on us. Find another solution.
I'm perfectly OK with males being completely forced out of WOMEN'S SPACES. That is my preferred solution. That doesn't mean they're forced out of public life. Sort yourselves out, men. Don't make the solution to your problem the destruction of women's spaces.
I'm not in favour of any checks on papers or certificates or indeed genitals. I am in favour of women having the right to challenge anyone who appears to be male in a place where he should not be. If the precious darlings are so right about how well they pass and how we'd never know, they lavatories at least shouldn't be a problem, should they?
Nobody needs to be forced out of public life. It is not necessary for a male, in order to participate in public life, to have the right to enter female single-sex spaces. I said it before. This is being made out to be women's problem, when it isn't. This is a problem for men to fix. If your trans-identifying brothers don't feel safe beside you in male spaces, or they just don't want to be beside you in male spaces, don't put this on us. Find another solution.
I'm perfectly OK with males being completely forced out of WOMEN'S SPACES. That is my preferred solution. That doesn't mean they're forced out of public life. Sort yourselves out, men. Don't make the solution to your problem the destruction of women's spaces.
I'm not in favour of any checks on papers or certificates or indeed genitals. I am in favour of women having the right to challenge anyone who appears to be male in a place where he should not be. If the precious darlings are so right about how well they pass and how we'd never know, they lavatories at least shouldn't be a problem, should they?
Okay so we've established:
1. Boudicca is a woman in literally every situation, even biologically.
2. Rolfe wants no men of any kind in literally any female-only space.
3. Straight Cis Men are the bad guys because we can't make both of those statements true.
1. Boudicca is a woman in literally every situation, even biologically.
2. Rolfe wants no men of any kind in literally any female-only space.
3. Straight Cis Men are the bad guys because we can't make both of those statements true.
angrysoba
Philosophile
No need for this self-pity that I would expect from Jordan Peterson or Dave Rubin (although he is not straight).
From what I can see, the Bad Guys are usually referred to as the TERFS or the trans athletes or trans users of bathrooms or prisons. Obviously they have mutually incompatible aims, like the Palestinians and the Israelis, or the Republicans and the Unionists in Northern Ireland. But basically they are blowing each other up, not those who wander onto the battlefield.
Rolfe
Adult human female
There is some truth to this. We have seen a very large number of men, including many in this thread, leap on to the trans side of every argument, berating and scolding and bullying women to "be kind" and give in to the trans demands. Absolutely no sympathy or empathy with the women whose hard-won safe spaces are being lost. Only the feelings of the transwomen, that is the males, are valid and must be accommodated.
It has many of the hallmarks of a men's rights movement. What men want men must have, and the wishes of women are selfish, irrational and indeed hysterical. They're not trying to "make both statements true". They're trying to force the people who espouse statement 2 to behave as if statement 1 was true, even though they know it isn't.
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Rolfe
Adult human female
It's not a viable option because it's a fundamentally unreasonable position. Transwomen are male. What do they have to work out with women? Why should women have to work anything out with them?
The problem is that this is seen as something women must be cajoled, shamed or forced into giving way on, and the cajoling and shaming and forcing is by and large being led by males, both transwomen and other men. (Not saying they don't have a cadre of woke handmaidens supporting them, mind.)
We are told that males (transwomen) demand access of right to female spaces because they don't feel safe in male spaces. For me the answer is, no, females don't feel safe in male spaces, and if you come into our spaces they become male spaces, so go away. Sort it out among yourselves, men. Either make male spaces welcoming and safe for all males, or find some other solution that doesn't involve women's spaces.
Rolfe,
Take a second to appreciate how weird it is that you're demanding I be on "your side" when your side is "Men are inherently predatory monsters."
You're basically asking me to take part in my own demonization.
Why trust my opinion on a matter if you don't trust me to be alone with you for 30 seconds without going into "Default Male Rape Mode."
Take a second to appreciate how weird it is that you're demanding I be on "your side" when your side is "Men are inherently predatory monsters."
You're basically asking me to take part in my own demonization.
Why trust my opinion on a matter if you don't trust me to be alone with you for 30 seconds without going into "Default Male Rape Mode."
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