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Trump's Coup d'état.

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JoeMorgue said:
Again I can't help but feel that even in the most liberal of democracy, where the needle is buried as far from a single "Dear Leader" concept as possible, openly denying the proper elected head of state, should have some consequences.

Like I get it we are not in Game of Thrones where Hawley should be beheaded if he doesn't "bend the knee" but... truth be told his political career should be on the line here. He's basically sided with the other side in a coup. You don't get to keep your seat in the Throne Room after that.
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How is it a coup, if it is something congress has the power to do?
 
Firestone said:
11 Republican senators join Hawley and say they'll "vote on January 6 to reject the electors" from certain states.

Ted Cruz
Ron Johnson
James Lankford
Steve Daines
John Kennedy
Marsha Blackburn
Mike Braun
Cynthia Lummis
Roger Marshall
Bill Hagerty
Tommy Tuberville

Full joint statement embedded in tweet: https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1345423296544829441?s=19

All 11 are demanding a 10-day audit of election returns in states they claim are "disputed." They suggest in the joint statement that they expect their effort to fail.
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Also from that statement, and as expected-

A fair and credible audit—conducted expeditiously and completed well before January 20—would dramatically improve Americans' faith in our electoral process and would significantly enhance the legitimacy of whoever becomes our next President. We owe that to the People.
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As Kapur points out, four of the signers were themselves just elected. I wonder- since they won using the same processes that Biden won by, would they agree that it "would dramatically improve Americans' faith in our electoral process" if their own victories were also subjected to a rigorous audit? Surely, if they owe it to the People to enhance Biden's legitimacy as President, they also owe it to them first to enhance their own legitimacy as triers of that issue? (One that, of course, wouldn't be an issue if they weren't making it one)
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
Someone smells blood in the water and is vying for McConnell's job. On second thought, Cruz is probably planning another POTUS run.
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I think Cruz is setting himself up for a 2024 run. McConnell is obviously moving toward a non-Trump Republican party. But there are a lot of Trump supporters. As the interest and influence of Trump wanes, Cruz is positioning himself to convert those Trump supporters into Cruz supporters.

I expect he will start putting out messaging that he is just like Trump, only better. He is smarter, more knowledgeable, and more capable. He doesn't have any of Trump's immoral baggage and other personality problems like the petty name calling and braggadocio and nepotism and Russia connections and bumbling ineptness. He will present himself as the new improved version of Trump.
 
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Sadly if Cruz can sell himself as a "Moral version of Trump" he might be able to make a good solid run on the office.

For a lot of fence sitters the problem with Trump isn't that he's a horrible totalitarian bully, it's that he's a horrible totalitarian bully that doesn't praise the baby Jeebus and kiss the heartland's ass enoough.
 
Meadmaker said:
I get that he puts his own interests over the country, and over everything, really. I just wonder what he thinks he is getting by continuing the fight long after it's obvious he lost.
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Attention. He's getting attention.

At this point it is an addiction. He wants the attention. He wants to control the media to be all about him. He wants to be the focus of the daily headlines and news shows. Once he concedes or gives up, all that goes away.

Trump will be able to continue to command some attention after the is out of office, but that is going to decrease considerably. Attention will turn to Biden and McConnell and Pelosi and cabinet members who actually have power.

The headlines won't be about Trump anymore. He will be just some guy ranting on Twitter. And he may well get kicked off Twitter.
 
DevilsAdvocate said:
Attention. He's getting attention.

At this point it is an addiction. He wants the attention. He wants to control the media to be all about him. He wants to be the focus of the daily headlines and news shows. Once he concedes or gives up, all that goes away.

Trump will be able to continue to command some attention after the is out of office, but that is going to decrease considerably. Attention will turn to Biden and McConnell and Pelosi and cabinet members who actually have power.

The headlines won't be about Trump anymore. He will be just some guy ranting on Twitter. And he may well get kicked off Twitter.
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I alos got a feeling his behavior in the next couple of weeks is going to hurt him with all but his die hard supporters,
 
If and when objections are raised, can the leaders in the houses ask the objectors for a clear statement of their objections first, then decide whether to act on them? Do there have to be cogent reasons why an objection must be heard?

The reason I ask is that if the objectors have no coherent reasons WHY they object, that they are just being obstreperous because they are simply disrupting government business pointlessly, the houses can simply move to ignore them and move on with business immediately. No debates, no delays, etc. Treat them as though they were an invasion of banner-waving intruders - have business suspended until calm is restored, and then carry on as before.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Sadly if Cruz can sell himself as a "Moral version of Trump" he might be able to make a good solid run on the office.

For a lot of fence sitters the problem with Trump isn't that he's a horrible totalitarian bully, it's that he's a horrible totalitarian bully that doesn't praise the baby Jeebus and kiss the heartland's ass enoough.
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I don't see Cruz gathering any kind of following like Trump's. Cruz has no charisma.

I do hope it splits the GOP. That would be an ideal end to Trump's crap: backfiring on the GOP.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Sadly if Cruz can sell himself as a "Moral version of Trump" he might be able to make a good solid run on the office.

For a lot of fence sitters the problem with Trump isn't that he's a horrible totalitarian bully, it's that he's a horrible totalitarian bully that doesn't praise the baby Jeebus and kiss the heartland's ass enoough.
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This presumes Trump's morality impacted him in a negative way. I don't think it did.
 
Norman Alexander said:
If and when objections are raised, can the leaders in the houses ask the objectors for a clear statement of their objections first, then decide whether to act on them? Do there have to be cogent reasons why an objection must be heard?

The reason I ask is that if the objectors have no coherent reasons WHY they object, that they are just being obstreperous because they are simply disrupting government business pointlessly, the houses can simply move to ignore them and move on with business immediately. No debates, no delays, etc. Treat them as though they were an invasion of banner-waving intruders - have business suspended until calm is restored, and then carry on as before.
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Objections must be made in writing without argument. So they actually CAN'T make a clear nd complete statement why they are objecting when they make the objection.

The objectors will be the first to speak in the House and Senate where they will lay out their argument. It will be the same general rubbish we have been hearing for weeks. They will most likely submit a big bunch of papers into the record.
 
Firestone said:
11 Republican senators join Hawley and say they'll "vote on January 6 to reject the electors" from certain states.

Ted Cruz
Ron Johnson
James Lankford
Steve Daines
John Kennedy
Marsha Blackburn
Mike Braun
Cynthia Lummis
Roger Marshall
Bill Hagerty
Tommy Tuberville
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Well, it's nice of them to have provided us with a ready-made list of traitorous sons of bitches who should never be trusted ever again.

If the Dems do re-take the Senate, everyone on this list should be shut out of every committee appointment that they can be, and simply ignored in any cases where they can't be turfed from the room. Committee chairs should make a point on the record that the opinions of these people are utterly worthless and without merit every time they open their stupid mouths.
 
Paul2 said:
Doing something you don’t have the power to do in an attempt to gain power is a sufficient, but not necessary, condition of a coup.
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But they appear to have that power. There were objections in 2016. Congress has the power to affirm their objection, have less than 270 electoral votes, and decide themselves who wins the presidency.
 
Horatius said:
Well, it's nice of them to have provided us with a ready-made list of traitorous sons of bitches who should never be trusted ever again.

If the Dems do re-take the Senate, everyone on this list should be shut out of every committee appointment that they can be, and simply ignored in any cases where they can't be turfed from the room. Committee chairs should make a point on the record that the opinions of these people are utterly worthless and without merit every time they open their stupid mouths.
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I don't think the Democrats can do that but McConnell can. Each party assigns committee seats with the leading party assigning the committee chair and they have one extra seat giving them the majority vote on each committee.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Sadly if Cruz can sell himself as a "Moral version of Trump" he might be able to make a good solid run on the office.

For a lot of fence sitters the problem with Trump isn't that he's a horrible totalitarian bully, it's that he's a horrible totalitarian bully that doesn't praise the baby Jeebus and kiss the heartland's ass enoough.
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There is NOTHING MORAL about Ted Cruz.
 
BobTheCoward said:
But they appear to have that power. There were objections in 2016. Congress has the power to affirm their objection, have less than 270 electoral votes, and decide themselves who wins the presidency.
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My first statement holds, but the implications were obscure because of how I wrote it. Sorry.

Doing something you are authorized to do can still be part of a coup. One can use the legitimate powers of democracy to achieve a coup. As one example: Assume an election goes to party A and both houses of Congress goes to party B. Party B can reject the duly chosen Electors in enough states to change the election results.
 
Paul2 said:
My first statement holds, but the implications were obscure because of how I wrote it. Sorry.

Doing something you are authorized to do can still be part of a coup. One can use the legitimate powers of democracy to achieve a coup. As one example: Assume an election goes to party A and both houses of Congress goes to party B. Party B can reject the duly chosen Electors in enough states to change the election results.
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If it isnt legality, then what separates a coup from a dumb system for determining government?
 
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