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Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

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Darat said:
I can say “I am a man*” and have that accepted based on nothing at all but me saying it
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That's not really true at all, though. You can say you're a man and have that accepted by people who already think of you as a man based on all kinds of other cues they've been picking up about you.
 
theprestige said:
That's not really true at all, though. You can say you're a man and have that accepted by people who already think of you as a man based on all kinds of other cues they've been picking up about you.
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What other cues other than my visual appearance?
 
Darat said:
And - and this where I think it pulls in JoeM queries regarding “identifying” - I can’t tell you how it feels to be a man, I have no way of knowing if my “inner” experience of being a man is anything like yours or JoeM’s and no one expects me to have to be able to articulate and describe what that experience is before I say “I am a man” and for you accept it.

All of that is what I consider the “gender” part of this discussion. There is of course the biological side - my genetic makeup - but no one asks me to dive into that when I say to them “I am Mr Darat”.
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Yeah but we could play this game with any and everything.

I can't prove that my "inner experience" of being left-handed is the same as anyone else's "inner experience" of being left-handed but what possibly am I even saying at this point?

And if I write, shoot, open doors, manipulate objects, and pick my nose with my right hand but "identify" as a left-hander, I can't counter people simply going "Wait... what?" with "Oh you just don't know my internal experience of handiness."

Again "Identify" isn't a magic word that gives you special internal qualities distinct and separate from outward reality.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Yeah but we could play this game with any and everything.

I can't prove that my "inner experience" of being left-handed is the same as anyone else's "inner experience" of being left-handed but what possibly am I even saying at this point?

And if I write, shoot, open doors, manipulate objects, and pick my nose with my right hand but "identify" as a left-hander, I can't counter people simply going "Wait... what?" with "Oh you just don't know my internal experience of handiness."

Again "Identify" isn't a magic word that gives you special internal qualities distinct and separate from outward reality.
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But we aren’t doing it with everything, we are doing it with gender/sex at the moment. How often do you need to articulate what your experience as a male is when you are being identified as a man? Of course the answer is never, so why do you think a trans man should be able to do so?
 
My "identify" as a man and my "experience" as a man are not distinct, they are the same thing.

I'm not a man because I "identify" as one. I just am one.

We're arguing souls and qualia at this point. Meaningless.
 
Sherkeu said:
There are other human conditions that are not a choice and they are deeply held beliefs about a persons internal identity.

The trans-abled people who truly feel they should be disabled and that part of their body is 'foreign' and should be cut off is one example (or they should be blind or deaf). They often act "as if" in wheelchairs, crutches, braces, earplugs etc... to cope with it. Or they might cause self harm so the offending part can be removed.

I wonder (if properly diagnosed) that we should give them disabled parking placards or let them participate in the special/Paralympics? That would match with their diagnosis and help them integrate, wouldn't it? Might be better than them trying to find someone to cut off a healthy leg. (Though anecdotally, surgery is often the thing that actually works...therapy does not)

Should we let them self-ID? What policy would work for them?
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First, let’s acknowledge the distinction between (1) gender dysphoria not being a choice, and ability dysphoria not being a choice, (2) whether Self-Id is consistent with that, and (3) what social policies might follow from that. I’m only trying to establish that, from what I know, gender dysphoria is not a choice.
 
Darat said:
What other cues other than my visual appearance?
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Your visual appearance is a whole collection of cues.

The point is that nobody is accepting your "I'm a man" based on nothing at all but you saying it. I bet that almost all the time, it's the other way around: You don't have to say "I'm a man" because people have already figured it out.
 
Paul2 said:
My understanding is that gender dysphoria is not a choice, and by framing it in terms of “I think of myself . . .” you make it sound that way. Did you mean it like that?
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Well, the evidence shows that in at least some cases, it is 100% choice, otherwise https://quillette.com/2020/01/02/th...ioners-are-growing-we-need-to-understand-why/.

Sherkeu said:
There are other human conditions that are not a choice and they are deeply held beliefs about a persons internal identity.

The trans-abled people who truly feel they should be disabled and that part of their body is 'foreign' and should be cut off is one example (or they should be blind or deaf). They often act "as if" in wheelchairs, crutches, braces, earplugs etc... to cope with it. Or they might cause self harm so the offending part can be removed.
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Bravo!

I've mentioned that similarity on several occasions. I think the two are highly analogous.
 
Paul2 said:
First, let’s acknowledge the distinction between (1) gender dysphoria not being a choice, and ability dysphoria not being a choice.
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And that distinction is.... ?

Please note that "The comparison makes my argument look really, really bad" isn't a valid distinction.
 
JoeMorgue said:
And that distinction is.... ?

Please note that "The comparison makes my argument look really, really bad" isn't a valid distinction.
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I didn’t mean the distinction between gender and ability dysphoria, I meant the distinction between (1), (2), and (3) from my post. If that’s what you meant.
 
Paul2 said:
First, let’s acknowledge the distinction between (1) gender dysphoria not being a choice, and ability dysphoria not being a choice, (2) whether Self-Id is consistent with that, and (3) what social policies might follow from that. I’m only trying to establish that, from what I know, gender dysphoria is not a choice.
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Gender Identity disorder isn't a choice.

Gender dysphoria is the mental struggle some people have with suffering from the first.

You could argue gender dysphoria isn't a choice, but you could also argue, people can get help dealing with gender dysphoria from having gender identity disorder from psychiatrists etc, so if you don't bother getting help to deal with it, you could argue it is choice.
 
The dysphoria is improbable to be a choice.

The way one choses to deal with it or not is. Seeking help from competent professionals or less than competent sources, lifestyle changes or hormone treatments to full surgical solutions if money allows.

Depression seems to walk hand in hand with any type of dysphoria and unchecked can lead to substance abuse and suicide. By not choosing other forms of help, one may have chosen these by default.
 
Paul2 said:
Can you quote the section of that article that talks about choosing to feel gender dysphoria? I did not see it (I’m not saying it isn’t there, just that I didn’t see it. Sorry).
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It isn't in the article, but it's pretty obvious that if someone detransitions, it wasn't some innate feeling that made them transition in the first place.

Or the detransitioning itself.

Confused choice, maybe, but choice all the same.

I'm loving the fact that theprestige and I are on the same page here - I'm pretty sure that's never happened before.
 
The Atheist said:
It isn't in the article, but it's pretty obvious that if someone detransitions, it wasn't some innate feeling that made them transition in the first place.

Or the detransitioning itself.

Confused choice, maybe, but choice all the same.
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Agreed, but surely there are plenty of trans folk who have not detransitioned, and won’t, so we can’t say that their dysphoria is a not a choice on that basis.
 
Paul2 said:
Agreed, but surely there are plenty of trans folk who have not detransitioned, and won’t, so we can’t say that their dysphoria is a not a choice on that basis.
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Holy crap, that's the third time today someone has misrepresented what I've typed, and I'm struggling to understand how that's possible when the words are actually quoted.

I said: ...in at least some cases...
 
The Atheist said:
Holy crap, that's the third time today someone has misrepresented what I've typed, and I'm struggling to understand how that's possible when the words are actually quoted.

I said: ...in at least some cases...
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Sorry, I didnt mean to put words in your mouth. But do you agree that for some trans folk, the dysphoria is not a choice?
 
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Paul2 said:
Sorry, I didnt mean to put words in your mouth. But do you agree that for some trans folk, the dysphoria is not a choice?
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The jury's out as far as I'm concerned. I'm sure it feels like that to many.

Those people who say "I always knew I was the wrong gender". How do they know? As has been asked many times, how does any male know what a woman feels like, and vice versa? How do they know it's not just a different form of the people who hate their legs?
 
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