Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

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Upchurch said:
ETA: not that it matters as EC made it clear she doesn't consider trans women to be women at all.
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And yet she's made it clear multiple times that she's in favor of treating them like women as far as reasonably possible, and as long as social and legal protections for ciswomen aren't unnecessarily undermined or eradicated in the process.

So it kinda does matter.
 
We're rapidly approaching "If a penis falls in a forest and no one is around to see it, is it still a rape threat?" levels of sophistry here.

If there's absolutely no way of knowing if the pair of pants in the stall next to you has an innie or an outie what are we even discussing?
 
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JoeMorgue said:
We're rapidly approaching "If a penis falls in a forest and no one is around to see it, is it still a rape threat?" levels of sophistry here.

If there's absolutely no way of knowing if the pair of pants in the stall next to you has an innie or an outie what are we even discussing?
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Think the point is open plan changing rooms as opposed to stalls tbh.

Not sure about where every one else lives, but we have a load, given it was kind of the easy thing to build in the past, and for most small communities asking them to fork out to redesign everything to appease the touchy feelies of about 1 person in 10 thousand is kind of not going to happen.
 
Well, I somehow manage to just not look at other people's genital's through the gaps in bathroom stalls with extreme levels of consistancy, but maybe that's just me.

It's a beef stick or a taco, not the creatures from Bird Box. Just don't like... try to look at it and you'll be fine. What are people afraid they catch a glimpse of it in the mirror, through the gap in the stall...
 
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JoeMorgue said:
Well, I somehow manage to just not look at other people's genital's through the gaps in bathroom stalls with extreme levels of consistancy, but maybe that's just me.

It's a beef stick or a taco, not the creatures from Bird Box. Just don't like... try to look at it and you'll be fine. What are people afraid they catch a glimpse of it in the mirror, through the gap in the stall...
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I am the same way, but I am a dude and have the luxury of not really caring.

I just try look at it from the point of view of those more vulnerable.

I have young nieces I wouldn't particularly want trying to get changed with "Dave, but for today I want to be called Brenda" hanging round next to them.

Call me paranoid. It is what it is.
 
JoeMorgue said:
We're rapidly approaching "If a penis falls in a forest and no one is around to see it, is it still a rape threat?" levels of sophistry here.

If there's absolutely no way of knowing if the pair of pants in the stall next to you has an innie or an outie what are we even discussing?
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Even if it is heavily implied by "Hi, my name is ____. I'm a cis/trans man/woman." What are we discussing here?

What does it matter if trans-women is a subset of man or woman? The trans-men I know from band are men in all the ways that matter to me and my fellow band mates. The trans-girl I know is a girl in all the ways that matter to me and her classmates.

If someone has a problem because of how a transgender person identifies, that's their problem, IMHO. If it's a big enough problem, society will adjust and evolve. It's already started to with the regular inclusion of preferred pronouns in online profiles and business cards.

Along those lines, I was explaining to my wife this weird thing one of my younger co-workers does when we sign off from online meetings with phrases like "goodbye, friends". I had heard my daughter's teacher do that in her zoom classes this year, and I thought it was odd to hear an adult say that to other adults. My wife, very kindly explained to me that "friends" is gender-neutral, as opposed to my ingrained habit of saying things like, "later, guys".

Language evolves. Culture evolves. Society evolves.

These threads will not age well.
 
Upchurch said:
What does it matter if trans-women is a subset of man or woman?
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Why does this question only get asked one way?

It doesn't to me. I've been on team "There is no actual distinction be made here" this entire time. But the entire point of this discussion, this debate, and the existence of this entire subculture is that it matters very much to them. Ask them. It doesn't matter to me. And the only transperson actually in this discussion instead of people arguing for or against their proxies has been very clear that she A) is a woman and B) will not discuss that any further so stop asking.

I've been calling this whole matter a pointless "Do I have eight fingers and two thumbs or ten fingers?" question since the beginning so I have no directions for you.

Why the label matters to them is the question we really should be asking and I mean that in the sense that I'd like to actually have an answer, but any attempt to drag it out of "Because they say so" have been met with hostility.

This thread may not age well, you very well might be accurate on that. But I can't imagine it will stay at "I define myself as a woman more and more while defining what a woman is less and less" forever either.

When someone demands to be thought of as this or that I just want to know what that means exactly. I, as always, remain rather confused and perturbed as to why that is treated with so return force.
 
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Upchurch said:
Even if it is heavily implied by "Hi, my name is ____. I'm a cis/trans man/woman." What are we discussing here?

What does it matter if trans-women is a subset of man or woman? The trans-men I know from band are men in all the ways that matter to me and my fellow band mates. The trans-girl I know is a girl in all the ways that matter to me and her classmates.

If someone has a problem because of how a transgender person identifies, that's their problem, IMHO. If it's a big enough problem, society will adjust and evolve. It's already started to with the regular inclusion of preferred pronouns in online profiles and business cards.

Along those lines, I was explaining to my wife this weird thing one of my younger co-workers does when we sign off from online meetings with phrases like "goodbye, friends". I had heard my daughter's teacher do that in her zoom classes this year, and I thought it was odd to hear an adult say that to other adults. My wife, very kindly explained to me that "friends" is gender-neutral, as opposed to my ingrained habit of saying things like, "later, guys".

Language evolves. Culture evolves. Society evolves.

These threads will not age well.
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The "goodbye friends" in online meetings is one I haven't heard of.

Have to admit I would find it a bid odd.

"Mate. I have to work with you, you ain't necessarily my friend"

With subsets, I would think trans women are a subset of males and trans men are a subset of females.

Because trans women are males and trans men are females.
 
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