Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

[Ziggurat]

Can you give me the specific examples you are referring to here?

Here's one of many examples:
https://www.jonesday.com/en/insights/2018/10/california-mandates-female-directors-for-public-co

"In addition, by the end of the 2021 calendar year, any such corporation must have:

A minimum of three female directors, if its number of directors is six or more;
A minimum of two female directors, if its number of directors is five; or
A minimum of one female director, if its number of directors is four or fewer."​

Note that the fraction of the population which is female doesn't enter into this in any way, shape, or form. It's a fixed number. Furthermore:

"According to the New Law: (i) a "publicly held corporation" means a corporation with outstanding shares listed on a major United States stock exchange; and (ii) "female" means an individual who self-identifies as a woman, without regard to the individual's designated sex at birth."
​

So if the board has four directors, all of them can be male, if one identifies as female. If a transwoman takes one of these spots to fill the quota, then a woman lost out. It is a zero sum game unless the quota is exceeded, but if it's exceeded, then there's no need for a transwoman to qualify as a woman for fulfilling the quota.

How would you come up with a quota without it being proportional? Tokenism?

Well, yes. Obviously. That's how it's normally done. Basically none of these sex/gender quotas actually measure populations and make them proportional to those populations in an evolving way. What the split is might be relevant to how big they make the quotas initially, but they're generally fixed in size, so that if the population of one group increases, the quota requirements for that group don't simply expand in proportion.

 

[Boudicca90]

Holy ****. I started out as generally supporting, looking for some reasonable common ground that will support the continuing fight for women's equality and also allow transgender people to be free from discrimination and persecution.

Transactivists have made me LESS inclusive than I started out as.

Y

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As a transgender woman, I am just as much of a woman as you (yes, even with a dick) and I deserve the same access and use of women's restrooms, locker rooms, shelters, prisons, opportunities, etc. as you have, with no restrictions. The genitals I have are of no interest to you or anyone else, as I am a biological woman as much as you.

I deserve to play sports with other women, both socially and professionally, and I shouldn't have to have my hormones monitored or controlled to do so. If you have a problem with ciswomen not being able to keep up, you should advise them to train harder and not let some biological differences give them an excuse to whine about losing.

I deserve to be able to have access to hormones without having to prove to anybody that I have gender dysphoria, since you don't need dysphoria to want to transition in the first place and therefore shouldn't require documentation of dysphoria. Same for changing legal documents, it's up to me what I identify as, not what a doctor who usually has far less knowledge about transgender experiences and healthcare than I do.

Trans kids and teens deserve to be validated and supported with any decision they make regarding their gender identity and should receive the appropriate hormones when they approach puberty. No more hormone blockers just delaying their progress and leaving them in limbo. They should get to choose which kind of puberty they want to go through when the time comes.

Take solace and comfort now in the few wins you've had against us lately, because the views of you and your allies will be dying out with you as we gain more acceptance in society. Especially with younger generations. You can't stop progress, you can only slow it down.

 

[Dismember]

I posted previously that Dr James Cantor has compared the current situation to the repressed memory syndrome scandals a few decades ago. I agree with him, but this is going to be much worse in terms of the impact on society and those caught up in it.

He describes this comparison in the video around 19.30.

https://youtu.be/_SGva6eWTDQ

This is exactly why, for all of London John’s deference to experts (which I would normally wholeheartedly agree with), I don’t trust or find the experts at all credible with regard to gender identity and the transgender phenomenon.

These are the same people and the same organizations that, with a straight face, brought us Repressed Memory Therapy, Satanic Ritual Abuse and Multiple Personality Disorder. They also used the same tactics to silence dissenting academics/researchers, and anyone skeptical of these claims and of the therapy: accusing them of supporting child abuse or being a child abuser themselves. To even dare question some of the stories told by “survivors” was considered abuse, tantamount to harming them all over again. Now, we’re accused of bigotry for daring to question the “gender identity” ideology, and any attempt at a real discussion is “literal violence” against transpeople.

This is not the first time these very same “experts” have blindly and enthusiastically promoted harmful pseudoscience. We have very good reason to doubt them.

 

[theprestige]

And there it is.

 

[The Atheist]

If you have a problem with ciswomen not being able to keep up, you should advise them to train harder and not let some biological differences give them an excuse to whine about losing

Well said, thanks for that.

I've copied that and will spreading it far and wide.

In the face of that kind of arrogant, condescending and starkly disgraceful attitude, people will turn off you in droves. Young people have embraced your position you say? Even the hardest SJW won't buy that level of over-entitlement.

You want to set the clock back for trans by at least a decade? You're doing an excellent job.

"Train harder"

Ha bloody ha.

 

[Joe Random]

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You never have. At least not in this thread.

 

[Boudicca90]

Well said, thanks for that.

I've copied that and will spreading it far and wide.

In the face of that kind of arrogant, condescending and starkly disgraceful attitude, people will turn off you in droves. Young people have embraced your position you say? Even the hardest SJW won't buy that level of over-entitlement.

You want to set the clock back for trans by at least a decade? You're doing an excellent job.

"Train harder"

Ha bloody ha.

Think I care about you and your primitive attitudes anymore, I don't. You will use any propaganda against us, so go ahead.

 

[Boudicca90]

And there it is.

Yep, there it goddamn is. I've given up with putting up with you people constantly calling women like me "men" or "male bodied". Why should I give a **** about what anybody thinks about the civil rights of transgender men and women just because cispeople are uncomfortable.

I'm done trying to respect people who don't respect me.

 

[Dismember]

Boudicca90: “Trans kids and teens deserve to be validated and supported with any decision they make regarding their gender identity”

One of those teens, Keira Bell, says otherwise and the UK court agreed with her.

https://www.thearticle.com/keira-bell-has-led-the-rest-of-us-must-follow-or-collude-in-harm

 

[Meadmaker]

It would be interesting to see if a phenomenon has been studied BEFORE you claim it to be a fact.

Well at any rate, as was learned subsequently, it has been studied, and the study confirmed that it was a fact, which should surprise no one.



I'll keep an eye out for references and backup for your assertions in the future. I'm sure those assertions are fully supported with appropriate documentation.

They are stupid examples.

Hmmm.... no link to click on. Maybe next time.

 

[Boudicca90]

Boudicca90: “Trans kids and teens deserve to be validated and supported with any decision they make regarding their gender identity”

One of those teens, Keira Bell, says otherwise and the UK court agreed with her.

https://www.thearticle.com/keira-bell-has-led-the-rest-of-us-must-follow-or-collude-in-harm

Because discrimination of us has been growing in the UK and they are more than willing to manipulate people for their aims. I wouldn't be surprised if someone close to him manipulated him into this. Same as the ex-gay crap, it is all politically motivated..

 

[JoeMorgue]

Even if you disagree with it, the idea that other women don't want to be around your penis in a locker room just because you go "No wait I'm one of you so that makes it okay!" shouldn't illicit this kind of response.

 

[theprestige]

The irony here is that pretty much every one of the "TERFs" in this thread have expressed a clear desire to meet transsexuals more than halfway, and accommodate them in almost every area of social participation. The only real sticking points have been over agreement on terminology for biological facts (e.g., "male-bodied"), and over social constructs that are closely tied to biological facts (such as locker rooms, medical care, and competitive sports).

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[Aber]

There are a lot of hypotheses, but they're things that are virtually impossible to quantitatively measure.

It's extremely common for girls to go through periods of body dysmorphia right before and during the early stages of puberty. It's very common for girls in the 11 to 14 range to be very unhappy with their bodies, scared of the changes occurring - both physically and socially - and to wish they were boys because it would be easier.

Speculatively, this has a lot to do with changing social expectations, and restrictions that show up for girls when they begin to develop. Where they used to be allowed to go out and play with any children, climb trees, fall down, wear whatever they want, and basically be free to be children... now they are expected to dress more demurely and their interactions with boys start to be monitored as a risk. When they start to develop breasts, girls get treated differently. Boys and adult men start to look at them differently, and start to look at them as sexual objects, frequently well before those girls develop any real sexuality at all. They have to be much more aware of their clothing and what they're doing... so that they don't accidentally expose some forbidden flesh and encourage male attention. There's a subconscious (and sometimes blatant) assumption that it's the girl's fault if a boy or adult man focuses inappropriate attention on her. It's more or less "It's your fault, little 12 yo Emily, that the grown-up man started hovering around you and making you uncomfortable - look what you're wearing! You can clearly see that you have boobs, with that skimpy tank top! You should dress more demurely so that you don't tempt adults like that".

Boys don't experience that kind of shift in expectations, and they don't get subtly blamed for their bodies developing and affecting the sexual attention of other people and adults. Boys don't end up with their movements being proscribed and monitored because they've begun maturity. Boys tend to get more freedoms as they enter puberty, not less.

Additionally, whether it's nature or nurture, girls cluster in a way that boys don't. Boys will have groups of friends, but girls have cliques. I'm not even going to try to speculate on why. But the effect of that clustering is "social contagion". There's a lot of "copying" and "mirroring" among girls. There's a lot of pressure and expectation to conform to ones peer group, and actions and behaviors that produce positive reinforcement tend to be quickly adopted by other girls in that cluster. So if one girl wears a new style of sweater, and gets compliments on it, other girls in her cluster are very likely to adopt the same style of sweater. This extends to behavior and presentation as well. So there's at least some historical reason to think that a girl identifying as transgender who gets positive responses to this (you're so brave and stunning, so wonderful) is likely to influence other girls to follow in her footsteps. I doubt it's even a conscious thing - most of the mirroring and conformity behaviors of pubescent girls aren't something they're cognizant of.

An additional potential complicator has to do with how sexual orientation, and sexuality in general, expresses in girls as opposed to boys. This is a spot where I have a lot less knowledge, so I'm mostly reiterating what I've read from other people, so take it with a grain of salt.

My understanding is that when sexuality begins to express in pubescent kids, they tend to show up differently. Boys sexuality is outwardly focused, desire-based. Girls sexuality tends to be more inwardly focused. It's hard to put into words, because it's not something I have done any real research on . I think it basically comes down to boys becoming sexually aware, and going through stages of recognizing and identifying what they want and desire. Girls go more through stages of trying to identify what about them is desirable by others. Again, I have no idea whether this is nature or nurture or a combination thereof. The point here is that when kids develop sexuality, if they are homosexual, they react differently. Boys who are homosexual tend to assume that there's something wrong with what they want, and they mask that by essentially pretending that they don't want other boys, they want girls. On the other hand, girls who are homosexual tend to assume that there's something wrong with their bodies and it's reactions. My understanding is that young gay boys tend to be closeted in a commonly understood way, whereas young lesbians tend to go through very internally-focused anxiety and think that there's something wrong with their bodies. That could, speculatively, amplify the pre-existing tendency of girls to have periods of body dysmorphia... and in an era where being trans is lauded as a wonderful thing, and is constantly affirmed, there's a concern that a lot of young lesbians are essentially being walked through conversion therapy and instead of being allowed to come to terms with being a cisgender lesbian, they become convinced (with the assistance of therapists who fast-track and affirm) that they're actually transgender heterosexuals.

Thank you

 

[theprestige]

Because discrimination of us has been growing in the UK and they are more than willing to manipulate people for their aims. I wouldn't be surprised if someone close to him manipulated him into this. Same as the ex-gay crap, it is all politically motivated..

Would you say that this conspiracy-theoretical viewpoint is widespread, among trans activists?

 

[The Atheist]

Think I care about you and your primitive attitudes anymore, I don't. You will use any propaganda against us, so go ahead.

My primitive attitude.

Is that the one that helped me organise trans-positive and anti-discrimination policies for several large corporates in NZ?

_________________________________________


And just in case anyone is ignorant enough to think "train harder" is a valid reason for women not being able to compete against blokes in panties, this:

Women's 100m world record - 10.49 seconds. Set by a drug-fuelled FloJo in her wind-assisted run in 1988 and never broken.

It was good enough to have been the men's world record in 1928, when they ran in gumboots and trousers.

 

[Paul2]

. . . .
As a transgender woman, I am just as much of a woman as you (yes, even with a dick) and I deserve the same access and use of women's restrooms, locker rooms, shelters, prisons, opportunities, etc. as you have, with no restrictions. The genitals I have are of no interest to you or anyone else, as I am a biological woman as much as you.

What definition of "woman" are you using? Just for clarity.

 

[cullennz]

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Well that hysterical rant kind of wiped out any credibility you had to me.

Thankfully the majority of trans people I have meet tend to be normal and not fanatical to make up for **** like this.

 

[cullennz]

Ahh forgot to add.

This

The genitals I have are of no interest to you or anyone else, as I am a biological woman as much as you.

Cracked me up. Mostly as I think you actually believe it.

Thanks for making my morning.

 

[cullennz]

..