Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

My sister wants a locker room where she can change clothes with no males present. You want to deny her that.

No, actually I don't. If people wish complete privacy from others then I think it should be provided.

I want to build a building that has separate bathrooms for males and females. You want to deny me that right.

No, i don't. I just disagree with your access policies.

I want to watch a sporting competition where all the participants are women. You want to deny me that opportunity.

No I don't. I just disagree with your access policies.

Selina Soule wanted to go to the New England girls' track championships. The policies that you advocated denied her that opportunity.

Because she wasn't good enough to win? I don't know the case but that's how sport works.

Look in the mirror to find someone who is denying people things that they want.

Yeah, really awful examples. Try again. Seriously they are up there with 'i'm being denied the right to only hire men'.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I referred to this attitude a page or two ago. People who are very keen on trans-inclusion in sports tend to be people who don't like sports.

Did you ever get round to sourcing that?

Or can we all just make random unsupported claims? Because I have it on good authority that people who oppose admitting transwomen to sports smell like cheese, don't like the poor, and steal Xmas presents from orphans

 

[Manger Douse]

It's great to see the anti trans lobby adopting such well thought out arguments.

It is your argument, but I'm glad to see you can now see that forcing someone to do a job they never signed up to do is ridiculous

 

[Louden Wilde]

Coming late to this thread via a nomination so apologies for butting in without reading the whole thing, but I just wanted to say that what bothers me about this whole thing is the stereotyping. A man likes wearing high heels and makeup, therefore he must really be a woman in the inside? No, he's a man who likes wearing high heels and makeup, and what's wrong with that. I'm a woman who has never worn high heels or makeup in her life, so what?

I look forward to a future when there is just one set of pronouns and no one knows or cares about gender. People will undoubtedly still divide everybody else into "people I find sexually attractive" and people I don't find sexually attractive", but no one except those involved will give a toss who's in anyone else's categories.

Very well put! And to me, very reasonable. However, this similar sentiment got a certain famous someone accused of wanting wipe out trans people:

Dress however you please.
Call yourself whatever you like.
Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you.
Live your best life in peace and security.
But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?

 

[Manger Douse]

If say, 2 thirds of the men running the big corporations came out as trans tomorrow, presumably some here would think equality and the pay-gap etc etc had been settled?

 

[Meadmaker]

Incidentally what are your thoughts on all-male golf clubs or social clubs? Should it be OK to exclude women from these?

In most cases, I think businesses, which those clubs are, should be required to provide services to clients of both sexes, all races, etc.

The other thing I object to here is 'we as a society aren't keen on' where again anti-trans arguments are assumed to be the majority view. We as a society aren't keen on bigotry and discrimination. If you want to be able to do it then you are going to have to justify it

The fact that these are political issues and disputed illustrates that we, as a society, are at least undecided on the issues.

. And repeatedly asserting things as obvious or not needing justification doesn't cut it.

Such as saying, "That's discrimination, so it's bad."

I believe you will find ample justification in these threads of why a woman might not want to take her clothes off in presence of a man, or whatever appellation you might provide for that sperm-producing individual in the locker room, but that justification is usually ignored, often with the words "bigotry" or "discrimination" substituted for a counterargument.

 

[Meadmaker]

No, actually I don't. If people wish complete privacy from others then I think it should be provided.



No, i don't. I just disagree with your access policies.



No I don't. I just disagree with your access policies.



Because she wasn't good enough to win? I don't know the case but that's how sport works.



Yeah, really awful examples. Try again. Seriously they are up there with 'i'm being denied the right to only hire men'.

Ah, yes. Really awful examples. They are all things you don't care about.


(Selina Soule is the young woman from Connecticut who would have gone to the New England girls' track championship had she not lost to two young males competing in the same division as her.)

 

[Ziggurat]

I'm not aware of there generally being specific quotas for things but if they are then they would surely be proportional

They are not.

so if you increase the numerator by the number of transwomen hired you also increase the denominator by the number of transwomen in the population. So the impact should be a wash.

But it isn't.

As always it seems, what is obvious to you about trans issues may not be the case.

That's ironic. You thought it was obvious that these quotas would be proportional, but they are not proportional.

 

[Meadmaker]

Did you ever get round to sourcing that?

Or can we all just make random unsupported claims? Because I have it on good authority that people who oppose admitting transwomen to sports smell like cheese, don't like the poor, and steal Xmas presents from orphans

Oh good lord.

Have you ever provided any citation for anything you have said in these threads? Any at all? For anything? I think you are pretty much all mouth.


At least I have an anecdote. Pixel42's response to the question about effects on women's sports was to refer to "pointless competitiveness". Similar views have been expressed throughout these threads.

It would be interesting to see if the phenomenon had been formally studied in a published paper, anywhere, but exactly what to google would be difficult.

 

[Ziggurat]

Did you ever get round to sourcing that?

Or can we all just make random unsupported claims?

It seems kind of obvious that this is the case and that you're out of touch if you don't already realize this. But since you are out of touch and insist on a source, here you go.

Public Attitudes about Transgender Participation in Sports: The Roles of Gender, Gender Identity Conformity, and Sports Fandom

"Sports fans are more likely to oppose transgender athletes’ participation"

 

[Meadmaker]

It seems kind of obvious that this is the case and that you're out of touch if you don't already realize this. But since you are out of touch and insist on a source, here you go.

Public Attitudes about Transgender Participation in Sports: The Roles of Gender, Gender Identity Conformity, and Sports Fandom

"Sports fans are more likely to oppose transgender athletes’ participation"

I didn't expect to be beaten to the punch on that one, but I found the exact same paper, but I have a slightly longer version of the quote from the abstract:

"Sports fans are more likely to oppose transgender athletes’ participation, and female sports fans have views that resemble those of male sports fans."

 

[dann]

Almost total unity as Alþingi, Iceland’s parliament, supports gender bill (RUV.is, Dec. 16, 2020)

 

[LondonJohn]

A transwoman is not just a man that likes wearing high heels.

The ongoing ignorance and misunderstanding from very many people - here and elsewhere - on these sorts of issues is somewhat worrying. As indeed is the casual or jocular way in which "people (not) like us" are being derided or dismissed...

As you rightly say, there are many men who like to present a visual image of themselves which is "traditionally" assigned to women. The celebrated British artist Grayson Perry is one such person. He likes to wear dresses, heels, makeup etc precisely because he wants to challenge arbitrary perceptions about what males and females "should" wear and look like. For most of his adult life, and especially given his high profile, he's had to endure a steady barrage of stupid and ignorant inferences about himself - most usually, of course, that he must be either gay or transexual (he is neither). And sadly, many of those mistaken inferences have been made by people who should know far better.

Other men like to wear "women's" clothing, makeup etc for other reasons, but without it signalling either their sexuality or their gender identity. Knuckleheads will however continue to either laugh at them, assume that they are mentally damaged in some way, or assume that they are either gay or transgender.

And as you say, transgender identity does not map 1:1 with adopting a visual personal appearance which is "traditionally" associated with the opposite sex or gender. Indeed, many transgender people wish to adopt androgynous appearances. And (as you say) many (eg) men who wear dresses and heels are not transgender.

It'd be helpful to any form of meaningful debate here if more people understood what transgender identity actually is, and what it is not. And it would also be helpful if they understood that the near-totality of transgender people not only do not lighty make the decision to identify as transgender: in fact, they agonise over choosing to identify as such. It seems to me that there are still people within this thread who appear to believe that identifying as transgender is either a) something which is frequently done on a whim or according to "woke" fashionability, or b) something which (eg) evil men might do nefariously in order to access women-only spaces, with the purpose of satisfying male heterosexual desires.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

It'd be helpful to any form of meaningful debate here if more people understood what transgender identity actually is, and what it is not. And it would also be helpful if they understood that the near-totality of transgender people not only do not lighty make the decision to identify as transgender: in fact, they agonise over choosing to identify as such. It seems to me that there are still people within this thread who appear to believe that identifying as transgender is either a) something which is frequently done on a whim or according to "woke" fashionability, or b) something which (eg) evil men might do nefariously in order to access women-only spaces, with the purpose of satisfying male heterosexual desires.

I doubt very many of these people actually believe this, it's just a useful strawman that makes transphobic policies more palatable.

 

[LondonJohn]

And an interesting - and perhaps illuminating - mental exercise is to pose the question of precisely how/why modern western society deems that, for example, males (of any sexuality or gender identity) should not wear skirts, dresses or makeup. Or how/why females (of any sexuality or gender identity) should not wear suits and ties.

Because, in the 21st Century in western societies, those "rules" are entirely arbitrary and they're the product of extensive social/cultural conditioning. There are, for example, no practical reasons why a heterosexual male man should not/cannot wear a dress.

And it's a racing certainty that prevailing reactionary attitudes to transgender identity (and to transvestism) are borne of blind, uncritical adherence to what society at large deems to be "normal" or "acceptable", coupled with constant reinforcement of these "normal" or "acceptable" traits in the media and other societal influencers. When you add that factor into the age-old "people who are not the same as me (and my friends & role models) are both wrong and abnormal" canard, it's a recipe for bigotry and dismissal.

 

[Ziggurat]

And an interesting - and perhaps illuminating - mental exercise is to pose the question of precisely how/why modern western society deems that, for example, males (of any sexuality or gender identity) should not wear skirts, dresses or makeup. Or how/why females (of any sexuality or gender identity) should not wear suits and ties.

Because, in the 21st Century in western societies, those "rules" are entirely arbitrary and they're the product of extensive social/cultural conditioning. There are, for example, no practical reasons why a heterosexual male man should not/cannot wear a dress.

There's no reason men cannot wear a dress. There are a number of practical reasons a person (man or woman) should not wear a dress, based upon the kind of physical activity that they might have to engage in, because dresses can get in the way more easily than pants. The expectation to engage in such activities leans more towards men, also for practical reasons.

The reason women wear makeup and men do not is because men are more aroused by visual indicators of youth and fertility than women are.

So there are in fact practical reasons why the norms have become established the way they are. Those reasons need not lead to a prohibition or requirement for either sex to present in any particular matter, but the difference in norms is still based upon something real. That's not going to change, even if attitudes relax.

And women frequently do wear suits in a business setting now. Ties are pretty arbitrary though.

 

[JoeMorgue]

90 pages into the 4th continuation of just the most recent thread on the topic and what transgenderism is "not" has gotten clearer and clearer while what it "is" has gotten hazier and hazier.

The entire concept of sex and gender has been reduced nebulous nothing with no traits or meaning at an exact ratio of how important it is that we acknowledge people's personal, internal image of.

"It is vitally important that you agree with people as to their gender identity but their gender identity is an absolutely meaningless concept that has no defining characteristics" is just such a weird place to form this passionate of social movement.

I don't like this. I don't like being on the "side" as it were with the transphobes and the "Real men do this and real women do this" types.

 

[Louden Wilde]

And an interesting - and perhaps illuminating - mental exercise is to pose the question of precisely how/why modern western society deems that, for example, males (of any sexuality or gender identity) should not wear skirts, dresses or makeup. Or how/why females (of any sexuality or gender identity) should not wear suits and ties.

When I (and others) do that exercise, we're struck by how much TWs adhere to those stereotypes..... As a number of the rad (& not so rad) fems say "being a woman is not a costume".

 

[Louden Wilde]

And as you say, transgender identity does not map 1:1 with adopting a visual personal appearance which is "traditionally" associated with the opposite sex or gender. Indeed, many transgender people wish to adopt androgynous appearances. And (as you say) many (eg) men who wear dresses and heels are not transgender.

Right. Especially with self-ID, there seems to be little agreement on how to define transgender folx by others (meaning external criteria). And I see some contradictions among Trans-activists on who is included.

It seems to me that there are still people within this thread who appear to believe that identifying as transgender is either a) something which is frequently done on a whim or according to "woke" fashionability, or b) something which (eg) evil men might do nefariously in order to access women-only spaces, with the purpose of satisfying male heterosexual desires.

I don't think it's 'evil', but I suggest males will do a lot to satisfy sexual (hetero or other) desires. I volunteer on an anonymous suicide prevention hotline - I find others are surprised when I tell them about the high frequency of male masturbating callers

 

[JihadJane]

Because she wasn't good enough to win? I don't know the case but that's how sport works.

Educate yourself.