Trump's Coup d'état.

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I did. You essentially pose that the majority of Congress would be criminally corrupt and complicit in blatant fraud. That's pretty CT, considering how the majority conservative SCOTUS wouldn't budge over the ethical line. A vote would never make it to the floor without substance fueling it.

How would you propose it could make it to vote, even assuming you had the corrupt representatives? A couple guys saying 'fraud' wouldn't do it.

The way it makes it to a vote, enshrined in the law, is that one member of the House and one member of the Senate declare their objection (to the slate of electors). That means it will be voted on.
 
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The way it makes it to a vote, enshrined in the law, is that one member of the House and one member of the Senate declare their objection (to the slate of electors). That means it will be voted on.

I wasn't following the other thread, so forgive the request for clarification, but:

One rep and one Senator say 'i object' and the election results are voided? I understood that a vote could only go to the floor if the electoral college could not arrive at a majority or other stopgame.
 
I did. You essentially pose that the majority of Congress would be criminally corrupt and complicit in blatant fraud. That's pretty CT, considering how the majority conservative SCOTUS wouldn't budge over the ethical line. A vote would never make it to the floor without substance fueling it.

Says who? There is no requirement for any actual substance in an accusation. It takes a conspiracy of 2 to get it to a vote, and then all it takes is a majority.

What is there to stop it from happening?

In what respect is it "criminally" corrupt? What part is illegal? That they don't really believe the basis for their challenge? How did you determine that? What if they have a sincere belief but are just biased?
 
I wasn't following the other thread, so forgive the request for clarification, but:

One rep and one Senator say 'i object' and the election results are voided? I understood that a vote could only go to the floor if the electoral college could not arrive at a majority or other stopgame.

No. If either a rep or senator object to a certain state's electors, and then someone in the other house of Congress sign on to the objection, then each house of Congress will consider the objection and vote to deny or accept the objection. It takes a majority of the members (not the state delegations for the House) in each chamber to sustain the objection.
 
I wasn't following the other thread, so forgive the request for clarification, but:

One rep and one Senator say 'i object' and the election results are voided? I understood that a vote could only go to the floor if the electoral college could not arrive at a majority or other stopgame.

Again, you didn't read my post.

What happens if there is a single-party majority in both houses (same party)? What's to prevent them from voting to uphold the challenge?

As I asked, do you really think the SC is going to overrule the vote of Congress? Do they have the authority to do so? Roberts is certainly not going to do that.
 
Again, you didn't read my post.

What happens if there is a single-party majority in both houses (same party)? What's to prevent them from voting to uphold the challenge?

As I asked, do you really think the SC is going to overrule the vote of Congress? Do they have the authority to do so? Roberts is certainly not going to do that.

You'd have to bring a lawsuit against that action of Congress, but who would have standing?

ETA: That would be a legal circus, totally unprecented, which is why it's important to close up that loophole. But don't ask me how.
 
No. If either a rep or senator object to a certain state's electors, and then someone in the other house of Congress sign on to the objection, then each house of Congress will consider the objection and vote to deny or accept the objection. It takes a majority of the members (not the state delegations for the House) in each chamber to sustain the objection.

Well it appears that the Senate leadership is actively trying to keep any Senator from signing on to an objection to the election results. This would force Senators to vote on this. They consider this to be a lose lose stunt.
 
You'd have to bring a lawsuit against that action of Congress, but who would have standing?

ETA: That would be a legal circus, totally unprecented, which is why it's important to close up that loophole. But don't ask me how.

I'd start by making elector eligibility a matter of fact and not up to a vote. You can't just throw out a vote because a majority of congress decides to do it. Courts serve well as triers of fact, and not so much on overruling opinion.

For example, the requirements for president eligibility are a natural born citizen 35 years old or older. While it is possible to debate what constitutes a "natural born citizen" at least that is something courts can define. They can also say, "The candidate has a birth certificate issue by a state of the union and that counts as natural born citizen." Can you imagine congress voting on whether the President is a natural born citizen? That's a matter of fact, not opinion.

Do that with electoral votes.
 
Well it appears that the Senate leadership is actively trying to keep any Senator from signing on to an objection to the election results. This would force Senators to vote on this. They consider this to be a lose lose stunt.

Yep, Senators are afraid to have to vote against the President for fear of retribution.

That is the state of the GOP - Senators can't even publicly vote against a challenge on a democrat electoral vote for fear of reprisal.
 
I wasn't following the other thread, so forgive the request for clarification, but:

One rep and one Senator say 'i object' and the election results are voided? I understood that a vote could only go to the floor if the electoral college could not arrive at a majority or other stopgame.

There are two different situations that apply.

The first is what happens if there is some sort of dispute about whether or not a state's electoral votes are valid. In 1876, some states sent in two different sets of electoral votes. (I can't do the story justice here. For more details, look up the election of 1876 in Wikipedia.) In 1887, some people in Congress decided there ought to be laws in place to cover how to proceed in the event that ever happened again. They passed the Electoral Count Act in 1887, a law that is still in place today, and it covers the "I object" case.

If the electoral votes are read, Senators or Representatives may object to some vote or votes. If one Representative and one Senator objects, then each house goes off and votes. If both houses of Congress vote to sustain that objection, that vote is not included in the total of electoral votes. The vote is done in the "regular" way, i.e. each congressman gets one vote. Majority wins. That's all from the Electoral Count Act of 1887.

The objection can't be any old objection. If the state only submits one set of votes, Congress has to take it. However, there are specific rules that must be followed in submitting votes, and the congresscritters can say that those rules weren't followed, and that the states didn't "really" submit any votes at all, because they didn't follow proper processes.

When all of that objecting is over, and all the votes have been taken, the Congress counts the remaining electoral votes.

Now, the other case kicks in, which is in the twelfth amendment of the Constitution. If no candidate has a majority, the top three go to the House or Representatives, where each state's delegation is polled, and the state gets one vote, and whoever has the most votes becomes President.....and there's some fine print in there about some edge cases. The Senate could end up involved.

So, there really is a process where if one party held a majority in both houses of Congress, they could object to enough electoral votes to either change the outcome, because their candidate has a majority of the remaining votes, or throw it to the House of Representatives for the one vote per state process, because no candidate has a majority.

You might ask why I say, "either", because if there are only two candidates is it the majority of the remaining votes (i.e. after subtracting the votes with sustained objections), or is it the majority of the original 538. The answer is that no one knows. The law is kind of vague on a couple of points, and none of this has ever been tested in court. Congress has never sustained an objection to accepting electoral votes from a state since the law was passed. Such objections have been made, but not sustained.


One thing that comes up sometimes is the fear that the Congress will declare that the election is disputed, so we go straight to the one vote per state process in the Constitution. That is not the case. The one vote per state process only happens on completion of the electoral vote count. It doesn't go to the House just because there's a dispute. You have to count the votes in order for it to go to the House.

Confusing? Yes. I think we need a constitutional amendment to upgrade the process from the 18th century process described in the Constitution, and the 19th century objection procedure, but such a thing is not likely to happen.
 
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I'd start by making elector eligibility a matter of fact and not up to a vote. You can't just throw out a vote because a majority of congress decides to do it. Courts serve well as triers of fact, and not so much on overruling opinion.

For example, the requirements for president eligibility are a natural born citizen 35 years old or older. While it is possible to debate what constitutes a "natural born citizen" at least that is something courts can define. They can also say, "The candidate has a birth certificate issue by a state of the union and that counts as natural born citizen." Can you imagine congress voting on whether the President is a natural born citizen? That's a matter of fact, not opinion.

Do that with electoral votes.
So you'd let the SCOTUS decide things, not Congress.

I guess the problem is that, in a democratic republic, people have to do the deciding. We've met the enemy and he is us.
 
Says who? There is no requirement for any actual substance in an accusation. It takes a conspiracy of 2 to get it to a vote, and then all it takes is a majority.

What is there to stop it from happening?

Here's the wikipedia article. The controversial part is under the "regularly given" clause of the Electoral Count Act.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elect...of,Congress following a presidential election.

"Regularly given" is not defined, and I think it leaves lots of room for shenanigans, but it does also create an opportunity for a Supreme Court override of those shenanigans.

In general, I agree with you, but there is somewhat of a safeguard in place. Certainly a mechanism exists for Congress to ignore the will of the people as expressed in the election, but it also requires complicity from the Supreme Court, or a willingness to ignore the court.

And....if those things happen, what it really comes down to is guns.



We didn't get anywhere close to that problem this year, and it looks like we won't, but I still think we got closer than we ought to.
 
So you'd let the SCOTUS decide things, not Congress.

I guess the problem is that, in a democratic republic, people have to do the deciding. We've met the enemy and he is us.

I'd let the SCOTUS rule on matters of fact. Because that is what courts do (among other things)
 
. . . .

If the electoral votes are read, Senators or Representatives may object to some vote or votes. If one Representative and one Senator objects, then each house goes off and votes. If both houses of Congress vote to sustain that objection, that vote is not included in the total of electoral votes. The vote is done in the "regular" way, i.e. each congressman gets one vote. Majority wins. That's all from the Electoral Count Act of 1887.
Did you mean that "regular way" to be the same "regular way" as this?

Here's the wikipedia article. The controversial part is under the "regularly given" clause of the Electoral Count Act.

Also,
The objection can't be any old objection. If the state only submits one set of votes, Congress has to take it. However, there are specific rules that must be followed in submitting votes, and the congresscritters can say that those rules weren't followed, and that the states didn't "really" submit any votes at all, because they didn't follow proper processes.
But, operationally, it can be any old objection, with enough obfuscation and/or lying, because there is no one nor any process empowered to prevent it.
 
Just another reason to repeal rule 230.
Somehow.

Wow! Is this a thing? I saw someone on Facebook (a Trump fan) arguing exactly that. They were arguing that You Tube was breaking the law because it was taking content off that promoted the election fraud conspiracy. I pointed out that just because You Tube is not liable for third party content it did not mean it was obliged to publish everything (or even anything). He was insisting up and down that they were legally obliged and that they had tried to have it both ways with Communications Law 230. I asked for evidence and none was forthcoming. Eventually he admitted that okay maybe they are not legally required, but that in his opinion they should be, and anyway there are like lawsuits about this so nobody knows. LOL! Yeah, lawsuits prove that something is in dispute, like Trump's clown car legal team, right?
 
Testing again. When I go into my control panel, the new avatar shows up. Do you see it here? I'm not seeing an update to it in my actual posts including the one above.

You're confusing avatar with profile picture. You changed your profile picture, not your avatar .
 
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