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Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

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Does this mean you're not going to answer my question about whether your support FPW suggesting that service providers demand birth certificates before admitting women into changing rooms or toilets?

Most of your questions are trying to bait a trap.

Toilets I don't care about. Locker rooms, changing rooms, prisons I do. And if we can't come up with a reasonable solution that prevents genitally intact males from being allowed to access those spaces solely on their claim to be "women' in some mystical ephemeral sense, I'm not sure what we're left with as an option.

Very much like your view with respect to service animals... I'd prefer NOT to have to require documentation for genuinely transgender people to access those spaces. But if the criteria is self-id and a claim, that's where it might end up. Because some people take advantage of compassionate attempts to accommodate others.
 
So it's therefore not possible for everything to actually "be fine on the physical front".

:rolleyes:

Yes, it is.

If surgery is successful enough to create functional and aesthetically pleasing external female parts on a biological male then things can be fine on the physical front. (And the reverse.)

This assumes you are only talking about sexual attraction and intercourse. If you are interested in reproduction, then you are correct. Things can never be fine on a genetic front. At least not with current technology.

But if you are talking family planning, we are moving out of casual sex/hookups and into the long term relationship area. And even without the transgender issue those criteria are not necessarily the same.
 
So it's therefore not possible for everything to actually "be fine on the physical front".

Are you denying that people can "pass?"

Because that's what I was talking about. The post was about sexual attraction, not changing sex.

I don't know much about the specifics of genital surgery, but it doesn't matter anyway, because I was answering PonderingTurtle's hypothetical. I don't think you understood what I was saying. Probably my fault.
 
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Most of your questions are trying to bait a trap.

Toilets I don't care about. Locker rooms, changing rooms, prisons I do. And if we can't come up with a reasonable solution that prevents genitally intact males from being allowed to access those spaces solely on their claim to be "women' in some mystical ephemeral sense, I'm not sure what we're left with as an option.

Very much like your view with respect to service animals... I'd prefer NOT to have to require documentation for genuinely transgender people to access those spaces. But if the criteria is self-id and a claim, that's where it might end up. Because some people take advantage of compassionate attempts to accommodate others.

You think all women having to carry around their birth certificate to access changing rooms is less of an indignity than sharing that space with trans women?
 
You think all women having to carry around their birth certificate to access changing rooms is less of an indignity than sharing that space with trans women?
I wouldn't think paper documentation necessary for those who obviously lack the usual bait and tackle.
 
I wouldn't think paper documentation necessary for those who obviously lack the usual bait and tackle.

Right. Traditionally femme appearing women won't be stopped. Is it acceptable that butch women, or just women who don't meet traditional beauty standards, be stopped at the door and demanded to provide a birth certificate?

The guide is very helpful to point out that no other documentation can suffice, just the birth certificate. Ugly women might get stopped at the door, and if they don't have their proper papers, no entry allowed.

Of course, passing trans women won't be stopped. Just ugly women, non-passing trans women, and butch appearing women will be harassed.
 
Is it acceptable that butch women, or just women who don't meet traditional beauty standards, be stopped at the door and demanded to provide a birth certificate?
Why the door? I thought EC (and others) were complaining about genitals in particular and we usually don't waggle those about until we get well past the door.
 
Why the door? I thought EC (and others) were complaining about genitals in particular and we usually don't waggle those about until we get well past the door.

FPW suggests asking before providing service:

To uphold your single-sex changing room policy you can reserve the right for staff to discreetly ask for additional information before using the service you are providing.

Flat chested women will kindly show papers before daring to enter.
 
The problem with both sides of the locker room issue is not that one side's solution is unacceptable. It's thoat both side's solutions are unacceptable.

Even worse, instead of trying to address the shortcomings of one or the other and find something workable that is as fair as possible, each side takes the easy way out and just continues to point out the problem with the other side's proposal.

The idea of checking ID on everyone who uses a locker room is ridiculous. Birth certificates are absurdly ridiculous.

At the same time having no criteria or means of enforcing a criteria when one is suspected of violating it is also unworkable. Unless you want to just cut to the chase and go to unisex facilities. (That's what these spaces become enforceable as.) The (admittedly small) number of people who wish to violate social norms are not going to be deterred by social pressure. And that's the case currently. However, a facility manager can ban or trespass someone who is violating the norm. And that is a deterrent even if its a wrist slap.

There's an imperfect medium available. One idea is that there are criteria, but it's not routinely checked. If someone thinks that criteria is not being followed, they can inform management, who can make their own assessment as to whether to inquire discreetly. As I said, it's imperfect. But I haven't heard of a better proposal. And it's essentially what has been in play in the past.

Or we can just leave things the way they are. No bathroom laws, but managers can enforce policy.
 
Both groups insist that women only spaces should remain women only spaces. How is this supporting trans people's right to "use whatever bathroom they want"?

FPW even published a handy dandy guide that explains exactly how excluding trans people from women's changing rooms and bathrooms is legal. It further points out that very few trans people have jumped through the legal hoops to actually have their official sex changed, so they explain how it's perfectly legal to exclude the majority of trans people who haven't met this burden.

And?

They accept that those who have gone through the legal process to change their gender can use the facilities appropriate for their new gender.

They oppose those who have not, and do not recognise the right for gender self-ID. It is a consistent position and compatible with UK law.


You disagree because your definition of trans people includes those who self ID; theirs does not, and so they can claim they are not trans exclusionary.
 
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So, ST:

Given your undecided status on the issue of trans women in sports, I assume you do not believe that thinking that sports are segregated by sex (as opposed to gender) is necessarily anti-trans.

Is this anti-trans legislation, or is it merely clarifying an instance where segregation is due to sex?
 
The problem with both sides of the locker room issue is not that one side's solution is unacceptable. It's thoat both side's solutions are unacceptable.

Even worse, instead of trying to address the shortcomings of one or the other and find something workable that is as fair as possible, each side takes the easy way out and just continues to point out the problem with the other side's proposal.

The idea of checking ID on everyone who uses a locker room is ridiculous. Birth certificates are absurdly ridiculous.

At the same time having no criteria or means of enforcing a criteria when one is suspected of violating it is also unworkable. Unless you want to just cut to the chase and go to unisex facilities. (That's what these spaces become enforceable as.) The (admittedly small) number of people who wish to violate social norms are not going to be deterred by social pressure. And that's the case currently. However, a facility manager can ban or trespass someone who is violating the norm. And that is a deterrent even if its a wrist slap.

There's an imperfect medium available. One idea is that there are criteria, but it's not routinely checked. If someone thinks that criteria is not being followed, they can inform management, who can make their own assessment as to whether to inquire discreetly. As I said, it's imperfect. But I haven't heard of a better proposal. And it's essentially what has been in play in the past.

Or we can just leave things the way they are. No bathroom laws, but managers can enforce policy.
This allows us now to distinguish between what the norm should be and how it should be enforced. The enforcement mechanism you've laid out is workable and not onerous. The policy of exactly who is allowed in which locker room is part of the membership agreement, everyone knows it and implicitly accepts it when they join the gym or club, and when it is violated, sanctions are applied.

ETA: Now, it's merely (!) a matter of defining who should be in which locker room.
 
compatible with UK law.
.

Not as far as I can see. UK law does not interpret discrimination based on whether or not the person has legally changed their gender on their birth certificate.

A persons status as trans is not impacted by whether or not they have changed their birth certificate.

It's not the first time you seem to have made some shaky claims about UK law.
 
The problem with both sides of the locker room issue is not that one side's solution is unacceptable. It's thoat both side's solutions are unacceptable.

I think this is pretty normal in any argument. I mean it was probably unacceptable to racists to allow black people to share their water coolers.

The point is then not about what one side or the other finds acceptable but what is reasonable and fair.

The law already allows for exceptions to allowing trans people access to womens spaces where there is a good reason to do so. The problem is that the anti-Trans lobby can't tell a good reason from a bad one and seem to think that their pearl clutching and scaremongering should be reason enough to be as discriminatory as they want to be.
 
Not as far as I can see. UK law does not interpret discrimination based on whether or not the person has legally changed their gender on their birth certificate.

AIUI in UK law:

sex defined at birth, unless changed by gender recognition certificate

protected characteristics for discrimination claims - sex, sexual orientation

employment law - much wider/looser definitions

per ONS
Sex and gender are different concepts that are often used interchangeably. The UK government refers to sex as being biologically defined, and gender as a social construct that is an internal sense of self, whether an individual sees themselves as a man or a woman, or another gender identity. They encompass many different identities and may be non-binary (that is, not a man or a woman).

If you believe differently please provide sources.
 
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