Marijuana is harmless. Right?

[3point14]

It's definitely not always harmless, though.

True, but if the standard for recreation being allowed is going to be 'always harmless', the board and roleplaying game industries are going to have a massive boost.

(Even then, you could still stand on a d4)

 

[Roger Ramjets]

The upshot was that it's still not politically expedient to say it's harmless, so you get studies showing "harmful" effects that are as mild as can be measured, and breathless journalism reporting "measurable harmful effects!"

Journalists are all in the pockets of politicians, got it.

What really happens is you get scientific studies showing harm, and potheads dismissing them for 'reasons'. But can you really trust a drug user to be impartial? Well of course you can! - say the potheads.

 

[8enotto]

My personal experience of knowing long term potheads is that they changed a lot in a decade.
Some becoming totally useless and on the verge of homeless, others changing interests and ambitions for less spectacular goals in life.

Mostly college degrees in management turning into part time waitress or dishwasher.

It didn't kill anyone per se but it was life changing in downward ways. Rather sad to watch with a few.

 

[Venom]

I don't know, but I'm certainly tired of the "pot hasn't killed anyone!" cannabis miracle drug, miracle product crowd. It reeks of overcompensation.

In my view marijuana doesn't deserve it's placement in schedule I of the Controlled Substances Act. I think it's a heavy waste of time and resources to criminalize possession and distribution.

 

[Orphia Nay]

The problem is that there is little long term research on harms.

That claim has been made for at least the last 50 years.

Prohibitionists are still searching for evidence of significant long term harm - unsucessfully.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Martingale wasn't making a claim, but saying "The honest answer is we do not know".

I don't know, but I'm certainly tired of the "pot hasn't killed anyone!" cannabis miracle drug, miracle product crowd. It reeks of overcompensation.

Well said.


Psion10, what long-term studies compare people who have smoked for 30 years without drinking at the same time, compared to just drinkers?

 

[crescent]

I don't know, but I'm certainly tired of the "pot hasn't killed anyone!" cannabis miracle drug, miracle product crowd. It reeks of overcompensation.

Pretty much that. Marijuana should be legal with a regulation structure similar to alcohol. But it is not going to save the world!


...and overconsumption of THC can be very distressful and land a person in the hospital. Nobody is going to die from a THC overdose, but the mental and emotional impacts of getting too much (as often happens with first time users of edibles or liquids) can be significant enough to require medical supervision.

 

[casebro]

My personal experience of knowing long term potheads is that they changed a lot in a decade.
Some becoming totally useless and on the verge of homeless, others changing interests and ambitions for less spectacular goals in life.

Mostly college degrees in management turning into part time waitress or dishwasher.

It didn't kill anyone per se but it was life changing in downward ways. Rather sad to watch with a few.

Yeah, this. I'll go with fewer direct casualties like car accidents and emphysema, but what about psycho things?

Though once upon a time there was a show that I missed. BBC maybe, it was an English psychologist who said the the pot heads were "develutes", they weren't going to amount to anything no matter what. Lots of room for post hoc reasoning there.

My experience, Pot releases endorphins, so you feel happy. Alcohol releases endorphins, and also lowers inhibitions. Not only do you feel happy, but now you can also do happy making activities. Though I don't get the happy without the activities. No sense me drinking alone, I need social activity to get the endorphins released. Which might be the + for pot? A toke will make you happy all by yourself, even if you are standing knee deep in a field of ****. So no need to navigate out of said field. I expect a boom in the future as life expectations drop.

 

[rockinkt]

Marijuana is totally harmless. It just grows, flowers, disperses seeds, and dies off. Not once has a marijuana plant been indicted in any assault, murder, kidnapping, or conspiracy.

 

[psionl0]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Martingale wasn't making a claim, but saying "The honest answer is we do not know".

Do you think that researchers haven't been trying to find evidence of long term harm all these years? It would (presumably) bolster the case for prohibition if there was proof of significant long term harm for large numbers of users.

Psion10, what long-term studies compare people who have smoked for 30 years without drinking at the same time, compared to just drinkers?

We have decades of data by now. We should have no trouble making a comparison like that (although many marijuana uses may use alcohol during times of a marijuana shortage).

So far, we haven't gotten much farther than "people with emotional or mental health issues shouldn't use it".

 

[Ziggurat]

Do you think that researchers haven't been trying to find evidence of long term harm all these years? It would (presumably) bolster the case for prohibition if there was proof of significant long term harm for large numbers of users.

How exactly would they get that evidence? Since marijuana has mostly been illegal, how do you track users long term? Just ask them? We know from diet studies that self reporting is inaccurate, and we don’t know what else marijuana users may have been doing. Separating out different effects (other drug use, self-selection bias, etc) is really hard. We have some data, but it’s really not very good data.

 

[arthwollipot]

My understanding of some research that came out the other day (by which I mean some time in the last 20 years) is that pot can exacerbate the effects of schizophrenia, if you already suffer from it. This was widely misreported as pot can cause schizophrenia, which was not what the research said.

Possession of small amounts of pot where I live is now legal at a local level, though it remains illegal at the federal level, and sale of it is still illegal, so I wouldn't be able to acquire it legally anyway. Our pot laws are a bit mess, really.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Pretty much that. Marijuana should be legal with a regulation structure similar to alcohol. But it is not going to save the world!


...and overconsumption of THC can be very distressful and land a person in the hospital. Nobody is going to die from a THC overdose, but the mental and emotional impacts of getting too much (as often happens with first time users of edibles or liquids) can be significant enough to require medical supervision.

My understanding of some research that came out the other day (by which I mean some time in the last 20 years) is that pot can exacerbate the effects of schizophrenia, if you already suffer from it. This was widely misreported as pot can cause schizophrenia, which was not what the research said.

Possession of small amounts of pot where I live is now legal at a local level, though it remains illegal at the federal level, and sale of it is still illegal, so I wouldn't be able to acquire it legally anyway. Our pot laws are a bit mess, really.

Its illegality can cause paranoia.

I haven't seen any good information on how making pot legal is supposed to paranoia/psychosis, or on how to separate paranoia and psychosis.

We've got a long way to go in studying it. I'm not arguing we should keep it illegal, nor am I arguing it should be illegal. I don't know.

This is going to be a long thread.

 

[arthwollipot]

Its illegality can cause paranoia.

I haven't seen any good information on how making pot legal is supposed to paranoia/psychosis, or on how to separate paranoia and psychosis.

We've got a long way to go in studying it. I'm not arguing we should keep it illegal, nor am I arguing it should be illegal. I don't know.

This is going to be a long thread.

For my part I believe that it should be fully as legal as alcohol and tobacco - ie, age-restricted and available only from licensed premises. It makes no sense to me that pot is illegal while alcohol and tobacco - two much more harmful drugs - are not.

 

[Planigale]

Professor David Nutt did some research into comparative harm of various drugs (and other things, like horse riding). His findings went against government policy so he lost his post.

Anyway, he reckons that alcohol does more harm than heroin, among other things, including marijuana. One report here - https://www.nhs.uk/news/lifestyle-and-exercise/study-compares-drug-harms/ and another here - https://www.vox.com/2015/2/24/8094759/alcohol-marijuana

To quote

The Lancet analysis ranked 20 drugs according to harms attributed to them by Nutt and other experts in a “one day interactive workshop”. Not surprisingly, perhaps, heroin, crack cocaine and metamfetamine were found to be most harmful to individual users. They also led the list of illegal drugs most harmful to society and others. However, because alcohol is legal and most widely available, it was found to be most harmful overall.

So this does not argue if other substances than alcohol were legal and widely used alcohol would remain the most harmful.

 

[EHocking]

Marijuana is Guns are totally harmless.
It just grows, flowers, disperses seeds, and dies off. They just lie around in desk drawers or hang up in the back of pickups.
Not once has a marijuana plant gun been indicted in any assault, murder, kidnapping, or conspiracy.

Don't know if that line of argument really works. . . .

(it is always the user that is the problem}

 

[rjh01]

This quote is from one of your links. The way I read it is that having to go to emergency departments as a result of using the drug would be rare and very few people who do go there are there because of the drug.

As cannabis has lost its stigma in Colorado, Monte’s research shows that the need for health care for cannabis-related reasons has risen3. Between 2012 and 2014, cannabis-related visits to emergency departments at a group of Colorado hospitals increased by around 40%, from 824 per 100,000 visits to 1,146 per 100,000.

 

[dann]

My understanding of some research that came out the other day (by which I mean some time in the last 20 years) is that pot can exacerbate the effects of schizophrenia, if you already suffer from it. This was widely misreported as pot can cause schizophrenia, which was not what the research said.

A rather old Swedish study indicated that pot causes schizophrenia - in particular in people who start young, i.e. in their teens.
Self reported cannabis use as a risk factor for schizophrenia in Swedish conscripts of 1969: historical cohort study (PMC/BMJ)

 

[Hlafordlaes]

My personal experience of knowing long term potheads is that they changed a lot in a decade.
Some becoming totally useless and on the verge of homeless, others changing interests and ambitions for less spectacular goals in life.

Mostly college degrees in management turning into part time waitress or dishwasher.

It didn't kill anyone per se but it was life changing in downward ways. Rather sad to watch with a few.

Not sure the causality isn't borked here. Can you affirm that some change in attitude/worldview isn't the cause of all the changes? Or, say, that depression or disappointment with life outcomes isn't the precipitating cause? As for the downward quality of employment trend, that is common to the entire genpop since 1980, so hard to separate out as attributable to MJ. In short, self-medication may be occasioned by some other factor.

 

[zooterkin]

To quote


So this does not argue if other substances than alcohol were legal and widely used alcohol would remain the most harmful.

It also doesn’t say it wouldn’t. It’s looking at the current situation; a lot of the harm due to heroin and other drugs is because they are illegal. The drugs are contaminated, the prices are high, and crime is committed to pay for them. A lot of those harms would not ensue if the drugs were legalised. I’m not saying it would be good for everyone, but looking at places like Portugal, it seems likely that overall harm is reduced by legalisation.

 

[rockinkt]

Don't know if that line of argument really works. . . .

(it is always the user that is the problem}

I guess if one has to explain they are being facetious then they did a poor job of it.